Mark & Kylie (Raw)

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Kerry: The first thing I was just gonna ask you is what do you think a typical Aussie is.. if someone .. if someone asked you to
explain a typical Australian how would you do that?

Mark: mm interesting … typical Australian … (1.5)

Kylie: I think it’s just really hard to … generalise like that I don’t … you know there’s .. there’s people in Australia that um
… are very well educated are very well travelled erm very well spoken … don’t even like sort of speak with a well spoken British
accent and then there’s Australians … who live in the outback … who speak almost their own language

Kerry: [mm]

Kylie: [erm] you know I just think it’s such a big place and there’s so many different people here that … (1.0) it’s hard to say
what a typical Australian is? because what .. what one typical Australian may be .. someone else might be nothing like that? so
…

Mark: Yeah.  I think I agree with you Kylie

Kylie: @@

Mark: Erm.  Just trying to think of … well ob.. obviously there’s no one typical Australian, but perhaps there’s stereotypes.
Do you want us to tell you about some of those [??????]

Kerry:                                                              [Absolutely]

Mark Yeah? =

Kerry:           = Yeah

Mark:  Alright, there’s .. there’s the Paul Hogan stereotype

Kylie: mm

Mark: That one’s … (1.0) well known [in Am]erica

Kylie                                  [mm]

Mark: and the UK

Kylie:  mm

Mark: Sorry I shouldn’t tap the table

Kerry: That’s alright. [@@]

Mark:  [um]

Kylie     [That’s] the way we um … market ourselves overseas as well we .. as the erm ocker bogans that like the eh what’s his
name?  Steve Irwin  you know the Crocodile Hunter =

Mark:                                                                 = Yep

Kylie: He’s one of the most popular.. he’s probably passed Paul Hogan in popularity stakes overseas everyone knows him … and
there would be so many people who would think that he’s a typical Australian man if they’ve not been here

Mark:  Yeah … although I think most intelligent Americans (???) probably know that not all Australians are like him

Kylie:  You don’t know [laughs]

Mark:                  [no] erm

Kerry: You might be surprised [actually]

Mark:                             [yeah] but um there are other stereotypes coming out like erm there a few Australians making
it sort of big in later movies just recently like Russel Crowe

Kylie:  mm

Mark: Ah Hugh Jackman.  Who else  There’s a few more

Kylie:  Nicole Kidman?

Mark:  Yeah =

Kylie:             = [Mm]

Mark:                 [well] exactly

Kylie:  Mm

Mark:  Yeah … and erm …  so they’re probably dispelling the old myth of .. of feral Aussies
      [sort of]

Kylie:  [Mm]

Mark: being ???

Kylie: yeah

Mark: yeah

Kylie: I’d like to think they were

Mark: Yeah

Kylie: ‘Cos it’s not an image that … it‘s embarrassing … if you’re overseas and they’re like you know

Mark: Mm

Kylie: Is your dad’s name Bruce and your Mum’s name Sheila right

Kerry/Mark: [@@@]

Kylie:           [????] yeah maybe a few of them but it’s not the way I want my country to be portrayed … [but]

Kerry:                [Have] you travelled overseas?

Kylie:  Ye[ah]

Kerry:       [uh]uh and do you find that’s what happens?  Is that what [??? ]

Kylie                                                    [Erm]

Kerry: Do you think that’s what peoples’ perception [of Australians]

Kylie:                                       [A lot of]

Kerry: [are?]

Kylie:  [Yeah] I was surprised that I thought that a lot of people thought that that’s  … (1.0) but they were people who’d not
been here

Kerry Mm  Where were you?

Kylie: Mostly in London.

Kerry:  Right.

Kylie: But travelling around Europe and Asia and Africa.

Kerry: Yeah.

Kylie: Erm … (1.0) In Africa they just wanna know what your relation you are to America so that’s why they’re not really that
interested in here I don’t think

Kerry: Yeah.  It must seem a very long way away [to them]

Kylie:                                    [Mm] [Mm]

Kerry:                                       [Have] you travelled overseas [????]

Mark:                                                                  [No I’ve never] I’ve never been overseas.

Kerry: Yeah

Mark: I’ve always lived in Australia never left.

Kerry: Yeah

Mark: Ah w.. I got a passport last year

Kerry: ye[ah]

Mark:    [just] so that I .. so that I have it when I wanna leave .. because ah last year I turned 18?

Kerry: Mm

Mark: and so once you turn 18 you can get your passport for 10 years instead of f.. 5

Kerry: Oh okay is that how it [works]

Mark:                           [S:o] I figured I’d get it now and then I’ll like be able to .. you know to keep it till I’m 28?

Kerry: Yeah yeah ??? excellent ???

Mark: Yeah

Kerry: Yeah  Well just going back to stereotypes then what do you think .. what’s your um idea of a stereotypical French person
or do you have one

Mark: Oh … a stereotypical French person. Yeah with a .. a beret and like a … there there used to be an ad on TV for for French
onion potato chips and they had

Kerry: [laughs]

Mark: guys with French sticks on their back

Kerry: [uhuh]

Mark:  [And erm] like a beret and like a white striped white and blue striped t shirt?

Kerry: Uhuh [Yeah]

Mark:            [and um] with stripes across it … and er speaking with a really really thick way out accent ... Yeah.  That’s
that’s a pretty typical stereotype.  What do what do you think Kylie?

Kylie: Erm mine’s not a very good one unfortunately and it’s bad because I’ve met a lot of nice French people as well

Mark: Oh well we know [that]

Kylie:                  [but]

Mark: French people aren’t really like that

Kylie: Well I met a lot more … um … rude French and they’re .. that’s what’s stayed in mind  particularly in Paris that um ..
the service and you know try as I did to speak the language it didn’t get me very far and so … I think with my first thought of
a French person is um a touch of arrogance? and … (1.0) also that was drilled into me every day in England that that ‘cos they
you know they all just say “oh they’re so arrogant” so I think with um everyone saying that you start to believe it um … but
yeah there was also that nice .. I always have this lovely picture of a woman riding through her small town and she’s got one of
those old bikes and the f.. couple of French sticks sticking out of her back um

Kerry: [Mm]

Kylie: [ba]sket or the front basket and … yeah there’s that nice side to it as well

Kerry: Yeah.  In what way were they rude can you

Kylie: Erm [they]

Kerry:        [Do] you remember some specific examples or what [you]

Kylie:                                             [they]

Kerry: thought was rude at the time

Kylie: Erm … (2.0) h.. u.. we went to a restaurant one night there was six of us and … clearly we couldn’t speak Engli.. er Fr..
sorry couldn’t speak French and you know as much as we would say hallo and thank you and but we couldn’t order in French and the
menu was all in French and we stood there for like ten minutes and the waiter was getting really angry with us and he wasn’t
helping us out at all ... and in the end we just thought it was easier to say six steaks and six chips ‘cos someone knew how to
say that and then he just said back in perfect English “Okay six steaks six chips and beer” … and and it was just like you’ve
spent ten minutes getting annoyed with us

Kerry: Mm

Kylie: we’re like .. and you spoke English why didn’t you just help us out?

Kerry: [Yeah]

Kylie:  [It was] it was always when we were eating out

Kerry:  Mm

Kylie:  But .. they were rude

Kerry: ???

Mark:  I’ve got a similar story to that … um I did French in high school and the teacher told us that’s what happens they ..
they pretend they can’t speak any English

Kylie: Mm

Mark: And they try make you @ speak French for them and they .. when they’re perfectly fluent anyway

Kylie: Yeah

Mark: ‘cos they don’t like doing that.  [Breath] A:h. well I guess in Australia … (1.0) we don’t know how to .. like most ..
people only speak s.. English

Kylie: Mm

Mark: the majority of us … so we don’t learn other languages for the tourists …  so I wouldn’t expect it from the French … but
when they know it … already then it’s kind of nice to sort of .. to say hello in … the native language

Kylie: Mm

Mark: and … it’s it’s amazing how the French … they still get heaps of tourists

Kylie: It’s the [most visited country]

Mark:            [??? ??? ??? ??? ???]

Kylie: in the world I think isn’t it? [France]?

Kerry:                           [Is it?]

Kylie: Yeah.

Mark: Possi[bly it’s certainly]

Kylie:             [Paris is definitely] the most visited city

Mark: up there yeah

Kerry:  Mm

Mark:  And now they’re … they’re they’re rude to the tourists

Kylie:  Yeah [@@]

Mark:           [It doesn’t] make any sense

Kylie:  Yeah I mean and er ..  I never get the pronunciation right but is it Champs Elysées?

Kerry: Uh huh

Kylie: And that street .. you are treated like dirt .. and that is the main street.  And what .. I don’t why we.. the first time
the service was embarrassing I felt so low … and we went back a second time @ and it was just as bad .. it was like they were
grunting at us and … yeah when they .. when a street like that relies solely on tourism but I guess they’re not relying on
repeat business @

Kerry: Yeah =

Kylie              = Because you’re just going

Mark: mm [I’m]

Kylie:       [may]be once in your life =

Mark:                             = I’m told if you go over that side of the river .. you get a lot of … good bargains

Kylie: Mm.  It’s always ??? that thing though you always want to go to the place that’s

Mark: yeah

Kylie:  a famous place and say that you’ve [had ]

Mark:                                [Yeah]

Kylie: a coffee there and

Mark: and say you’ve been

Kylie:  [Been treated badly] @

Mark:  [??? ??? ???] someone that knows it

Kerry: @@

Kylie: @@ Yeah yeah =

Kerry:                 = Yeah .. apparently there’s a restaurant in London in Chinatown and they’re famous for that and people
go there … on purpose to be treated badly apparently they’re treated like absolute shit this .. the waiters and everything and
that’s part of the attraction of this place that people go there just to see how bad it really is and

Kylie: [mm]

Kerry: [it sounds] horrific I’ve never been there

Kylie: [Mm]

Kerry: [As yet.]

Kylie: Mm

Kerry: So I think it’s that kind of thing as well =

Mark:                                     = But the Chinese being rude it’s just not as fun is it as the French being rude

Kerry: @@

Kylie: Yeah @ true

Mark: The way they do it it’s just a whole lot snootier?

Kerry: Yeah  Different?

Mark: Yeah

Kerry: Yeah yeah

Mark: In Chinese it’s just not right .. just ... you can’t explain it .. just doesn’t have the same effect

Kylie: [No]

Kerry: [They’re] not elegant with it

Mark: No

Kerry: @@

Mark: [?????]

Kylie: [That’s] the thing that .. it .. it’s been joked about before the French can yell at you and it still sounds good?

Kerry: [yeah]

Kylie: [like] they can get away with it probably ‘cos it still sounds … attractive

Kerry: yeah yeah yeah … So what did you miss most about Australia when you were away?

Kylie: um … (3.0)

Kerry:  How long were [you]

Kylie:                 [the]

Kerry: gone for?

Kylie: Erm .. two and half years? … The honesty I think.

Kerry: Oh Okay.

Kylie: The honesty of people … But mo.. most will most people you can tell they either like you or they don’t like you … either
by the way they act or that they’ll tell you that

Kerry: Mm

Kylie:  Erm … Whereas in … (2.5) well I’m just going .. I’m comparing this to England ‘cos that’s where I mostly lived … um
everyone pretends to be your best friend. … It’s a lot of falseness there I think

Kerry: Okay

Kylie: whereas I’ve … one thing I’ve learnt from that is I think Australians generally are quite genuine?

Kerry: Right.  H.. how did it sort of .. manifest itself ..  I mean what .. what made you feel that people were being false?

Kylie:  … Um just a bit over the top … you know you might meet someone once and then the next time they’d be so excited to see
you [and]

Kerry:                             [Mm]

Kylie: you sort of think well I’m not that fascinating @@ surely you’re not that happy to see me you know like Idunno I mean it
wasn’t a big issue but it was just

Kerry: yeah

Kylie: Yeah but it was … and erm … maybe it was the work I … maybe it was the place I worked in ‘cos I worked there for 18
months and

Kerry: Mm

Kylie:  Maybe um … I hadn’t been exposed to so much backstabbing in the workplace and maybe that’s just where I …

Kerry:  Mm

Kylie: got it from

Kerry: Yeah yeah yeah  It’s interesting ‘cos that was one of my other questions for much later is how important do you think
honesty is … erm … and I don’t mean sort of couples being faithful to each other but sort of in a friendship erm … where do you
think honesty cuts off and politeness comes in so if you .. you know if your friend comes in … wearing something horrific .. are
you actually going to say that looks

Kylie: [Mm]

Kerry: [dread]ful or are you just going to be polite about it  sort of … how do you .. how do you see that balance what’s more
important for you?  Would you always just be really honest and say

Kylie:  No

Kerry:  [So] if you thought …

Kylie:  No .. because also it’s not my place to tell someone that … a.. apart from maybe one or two friends ... if you’re out
shopping and you’d say ooh I don’t like that but .. who am I to s… tell a friend or someone that that looks silly ‘cos they
might like it.

Kerry:  [uhuh]

Kylie:    [So] I don’t that’s any of my business

Kerry:  Okay .. so where do you see the cut off then between … sort of … when you stop being honest and when you should start
being polite?

Mark:  I think it depends how … how well … how close you are to the friend

Kerry:  Mm

Mark:  ‘Cos if it was a close friend of mine I wouldn’t say anything  … if I thought they looked terrible

Kerry:  [Mm]

Mark:  [What] they were wearing unless they asked … And If they asked “What.. what do you think”  then I co.. then I’d just be
honest

Kerry:  [Right]

Mark:   [I’d] say no you’d look much better in something else

Kerry:  Okay so you don’t … you’d find a nice way to tell them as well =

Mark:                                                    = Yeah =

Kerry:                                                        = You wouldn’t just come out and say “oh that looks horrible”

Mark: mm yeah most of the time that’s what I’d do

Kerry:  right

Mark: but i.. it’s .. I think that’s the idea if you … if you’re … if you’re a friend then you owe them your honesty …

Kerry: mm

Kylie: mm

Mark:  ‘cos if you lie to them .. then .. it’s just not right … friendship’s important

Kerry: mm

Kylie:  I always that I can never ever work in a.. one of those fashion shops ‘cos I just can’t .. I’m not a very good liar and
if someone said “Oh does this look good”  and you know all them say “oh that looks fan[tas]tic”

Kerry:                    [Yeah]

Kylie: whatever you try on.  I couldn’t …

Kerry: yeah

Kylie: lie and say “yeah it does look good” when …  if.. if they’re asking for my opinion

Kerry:  Yeah  unless it’s commission-based and then …

Kylie: Yeah well that @ [might be why they so readily @@]

Kerry:                 [@@ …… @@]

Mark:  I could probably do it but I wouldn’t like it

Kylie:  No

Mark: It .. it would just be … It would just be horrible

Kylie:  Mm

Kerry:  What about something like if someone lent you … say a good friend lent you a really good book or their favourite book …
and you read it and you just thought “I don’t really like this” .. and they .. when you give it back they ask what you think of
it.  Would you tell them you didn’t like it? or would you …

Mark:  I would

Kerry:  You would

Kylie:  Yeah I would … because that’s not personal at all … that’s not judging their character or their personality … (1.0)
that’s just …

Kerry: but if it’s their favourite book and they really like it isn’t that … you [don’t]

Kylie:                                                       [mm]

Kerry: see that as [criticising]

Kylie:              [n.. … no]

Kerry: what they’re reading

Kylie: no ‘cos I think that’s really dishonest to say yeah it was a great book just because …

Kerry: [mm]

Kylie:  [they] liked it

Mark: well I’d think if they’re asking f.. for your opinion … why would they want you to lie?

Kerry/Kylie: mm


Mark: if they say well why did you say that we.. well you asked

Kerry: [@]

Kylie:  [yeah] if they don’t want anyone to be critical of it they shouldn’t ask [in case]

Mark:                                                    [yeah]

Kylie: someone is

Mark: they wanted an honest opinion … (1.0) they got it [@]

Kylie:                                       [yeah]

Mark: … [but]

Kylie: … [I know] um .. my parents go to the movies a lot and @ my mum just loves everything she goes to and sometimes Dad will
be honest and say I didn’t like it and it’s like h:e’s said to her I don’t like you … she takes it so personally .. that he
might not like a movie

Kerry: yeah

Kylie: … and I don’t .. I just don’t … see why .. you know she’s had no input into that sort of product so

Kerry: [yeah]

Kylie: [it’s] no judgement on her

Kerry: but because she likes it maybe she takes that as being sort of [as being]

Kylie:                                                [yeah]

Kerry: critical of her likes? =

Kylie                 = yeah

Kerry: yeah

Kylie: maybe

Kerry: yeah … but then if she likes everything … it’s [????????????????????????????????]

Kylie:                                          [@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@] yeah I think so

Kerry: yeah … it’s interesting though what you said about the .. the English because the French think the Australians are very
hypocritical … (1.0) um … simply because we do this polite stuff so we wouldn’t tell someone that we thought they looked bad

Kylie: mm

Kerry: um .. whereas they would … they’d just come straight out with it and they’re very direct and s.. sort of honesty comes
before everything else .. which is why we often think they’re being rude

Kylie: mm

Kerry: because they would … they’d be honest in places where we would probably choose to be polite [??]

Kylie:     [but]

Kerry:  as well so..

Kylie: I think .. ‘cos um .. I forgot a perfect example was I worked for an accounting firm for 18 months in London and one of
the partners there was French and I worked on and off for him .. he was French Mauritian

Kerry: mm

Kylie: um .. and … in eighteen months he had six French secretaries? that all quit in tears [um]

Kerry:                                                              [@]

Kylie: he almost had me in tears a few times … and I just thought he … (2.0) his Frenchness made him a really bad person

Kerry: [mm]

Kylie: [I] think though he was a .. he was so rude and abrupt he never was … um subtle or … (1.0) he’d just say whatever he felt
and it .. and it was … (1.0) he upset everyone by being like that

Kerry: [yeah]

Kylie:  [er] even the F.. even the six French secretaries who … must be used to .. that

Kerry: yeah =

Kylie:             = way maybe?

Kerry: yeah

Kylie: but he would u.. he upset [all of them and HE WAS]

Kerry:                       [that’s interesting]

Kylie: worse to them …

Kerry: yeah

Kylie: than me .. I think maybe ‘cos he thought they had that French connection and [he could]

Kerry:                                                            [yeah]

Kylie:  .. he could be more [blunt]

Kerry:                            [yeah]

Kylie: with them

Kerry: yeah … ‘cos the French sort of um … (1.5) their sense of hierarchy is much .. they still have that sense of hierarchy
[whereas]

Kylie:                       [mm]

Kerry: most .. I suppose Brits do a little bit but Australia’s really tried not to?

Kylie: mm

Kerry: um so the French people who are bosses will come in and just order people around because they can do that … and of course
Australians take … they don’t take kindly to that [at all]

Kylie:                                                                    [no]

Kerry: but then it’s interesting that obviously the French secretaires didn’t either so he must have been a really … extreme
case

Kylie: mm

Kerry: yeah ... um … so thinking of opinions then do you think it’s always important to give an opinion

Mark: … (1.5) no sometimes you’ve.. you’ve got to know when to shut up ...

Kerry: mm

Mark: but when you’re asked for an opinion then you know

Kerry: when would you shut up?

Mark: er well it depends who’s asking the opinion

Kerry: @ [uhuh]

Mark:      [‘cos] if it’s someone you’re not gonna know … you can just not say anything … (1.0) you know … depends if it’s just
you and them or if it’s … (1.0) does anyone have an opinion on this ???? … (1.5) yeah I mean if you think you might anger
someone and you don’t .. you don’t care about whether you impress them or if you’re honest and they think you’re a horrible
person or … (2.0)

Kylie: um … well doing the course that I’m doing it .. you can’t not be opinionated .. like … um .. where our tutes are one
hundred percent arguments .. [that’s]

Mark:                                       [right]

Kylie: all we do .. I think the most important thing I’ve learnt is .. if you’re gonna have an opinion on something know what
you’re talking about .. and .. when you were saying people should know when to shut up I think it’s .. that’s true when people
get really loud about something like .. I think that .. you know that looking foolish ‘cos I’ve done it myself .. if you get
really opinionated about something .. and you actually d.. have nothing [to back it up]

Kerry:                                                      [@@@]

Kylie: like you don’t really know what you’re arguing about? I mean like that .. that’s when I’ve taught myself .. to shut up …
unless I know .. or think I know what I’m talking about?

Kerry: … (2.5) what.. what do you think opinionated means .. you just used the word there  how do you define opinionated? I’ll
ask you the same thing

Mark: [uni.. universal] (??)

Kylie: [just um] oh you .. you’re gonna =

Mark:                             = I was gonna say ... you ... have … an opinion on everything … don’t necessarily share it all
the time but most of the time I reckon … (2.5) the idea of someone who’s opinionated which you know ... and they all .. they ..
they’re set in their w.. ways … (1.0) someone who’s opinionated will already have their opinion sort of settled ahead … ready to
dish ‘em out … at any opportunity

Kylie: mm [I]

Mark:      [?]

Kylie: agree with that .. that it’s just um .. an opinion that is strong? often

Mark: yeah =

Kylie:         = everything you have an opinion on? And you’re strong on ... everyone of those? … and that you don’t .. can’t be
swayed .. I don’t think it necessarily means that someone else’s opinion .. you .. you think is wrong … (1.0) but you just don’t
.. you think your way’s … more right

Mark: yeah … [so]

Kylie:                [yeah]

Mark: someone’s who’s opinionated does not have an open mind …

Kylie: mm

Kerry: … so you see it as a negative quality .. someone being opinionated?

Mark: yeah I think so

Kerry: it has a negative connotation for you?

Mark: w.. well it does because … (1.5) um … you’re never go.. really going to learn anything new

Kerry: [mm]

Mark:   [if] you’re like that … (1.5) like … you’ve already decided on everything [and]

Kylie:                                                        [and] you can’t be right about everything [‘cos]

Mark:                      [mm]

Kylie:  you don’t know the facts of .. you know .. you may have thought something for the last ten years … but never been
exposed to one little fact … someone might come along .. if you’re not willing to .. let that in but that one little fact may
change the whole … your whole opinion on it .. but if you’re close-minded and said .. saying no I’ve thought it for ten years
and you’re not gonna sway me

Kerry: mm

Kylie: … (2.0) that .. that is negative … (1.0)

Kerry: do you see a difference between opinionated and dogmatic? … (7.0)

Kylie: mm … (5.0) mm

Kerry: @@@

Mark: they pr.. it’s certainly similar

Kylie: yeah I reckon … (3.0) I just think it depends on how strongly someone .. is opinionated … as to its links with being
dogmatic

Kerry: mm … (4.0)

Kylie: ‘cos some people are a little bit opinionated and some people are .. very opinionated

Kerry: mm .. so do you see dogmatic as something at the end of a scale? or something? … (4.0)

Kylie: [mm]

Kerry: [or] does that mean something else? … (3.5)

Kylie: mm … (1.5) I don’t know

Mark: yeah I can’t think of any differences … (2.0) but there probably are some … just not off the top of my head I’m ..

Kerry: yeah … (1.5) do you know the expression “to sit on the fence”?

Kylie: yeah

Kerry: can you .. ‘cos it’s a .. it’s quite an Aussie expression … so how would you explain that …

Kylie: non-confrontational … (2.0)

Mark: yeah .. when an argument comes up … (1.5) and someone sits on the fence it’s .. it means that they’ve … they’re not even
jumping in .. they’re not expressing what they think … they won’t take sides … (2.0)

Kerry: and does it have a positive connotation or negative?

Mark: I’d say it depends on the situation

Kylie: mm

Kerry: can you give an example

Mark: well … there are no real right or wrong … way.. places to .. to sit on the fence but … possibly an example … is um … (1.0)
where it’s a lose-lose situation @ … you’re gonna get someone in trouble or … it’s gonna cause trouble no matter whose .. side
you take s.. take sides … (1.0) (breath) or … (1.0) um … say if two people are arguing and you’re .. friends or good friends or
relo.. related to or something with both of them? and then … whoever’s side you take you annoy the other .. party? so that’s a
situation where it would be good to sit on the fence

Kylie: mm … (1.5) and I think also like what I was saying before where … if you don’t really know .. i.. particularly if you’re
having an argument about … dogs and you know nothing about dogs then I think it’s good to sit on the fence because … what are ..
what .. do you have to contri[bute in a way]

Mark:   [yeah well I..] I would say that it’s easier to sit on the fence when you can use the excuse I don’t really know much
about ..

Kylie: yeah

Mark: the argument

Kylie: mm … (2.0)

Mark: instead of I don’t wanna .. share my opinion @

Kylie: mm

Mark: ‘cos then people will say oh … (1.0) you can’t sit on the fence … be honest

Kylie: I also then (?) think it .. you know back .. what you were just saying with honesty then that it’s always a good thing?

Kerry: mm =

Kylie:         = people … (2.0) I think it … sometimes might show that people aren’t confident in what they believe themselves?

Kerry: mm

Kylie: and they’re … (1.5) worried to … (1.0) ruffle the feathers and yet … someone else’s obviously doing it so … if you have …
something that you want to say I think you should … (2.0) maybe come out and say it … (2.0) ‘cos y.. what you’ve got to
contribute might be just as important as anyone else’s … (3.0)

Kerry: yeah … do you think as a.. a nation we avoid confrontation … (3.0)

Mark: um … sometimes … (1.0) like um … (3.0) Gough Whitlam did a bit … not .. not most of the time but … um … when Indonesia
attacked East Timor he did even though ???????????? were pretty good ???? he did avoid that confrontation because he thought
there was just gonna be a war

Kerry: mm

Mark: er … probably at the time he couldn’t afford to have that stuck to his name because there were so many people attacking
him for other things … (1.5) er … but as a nation … (1.0) mm …

Kerry: I suppose I just meant on like on a personal le[vel]

Mark:                                   [yeah]

Kerry: do you think [that’s]

Mark:             [well]

Kerry: what we do … (4.0)

Kylie: I think we do but then that … (1.0) contradicts what I said before that we’re honest … maybe we are .. we are but not as
honest as I thought

Kerry: @@[@@]

Kylie:    [because] I think we are fairly non-confrontational … and we .. most people .. well a lot of people want everyone to
be their mate … and they .. they don’t want to … (1.5) lose friendships or … so … um yeah I take that back

Kerry: @ ….. [@@@@]

Kylie.:             [we’re not an honest nation] at all we just wanna please each other @@@@@

Kerry: yeah … (1.0) but then it’s interesting what you were saying about your tute where … it’s just one big argument … (3.0)

Kylie: yeah … but I don’t get that at any other part of my life

Kerry: right

Kylie: like (?) some of my friends if they walked in my.. into my tute would be … (1.0) oh it’s too much … I mean we’re just
yelling at each other for the whole time basically =

Kerry:                                                        = how many people are in that?

Kylie: our main one is … there’s forty of us ‘cos there’s forty people staying in my … ?? course … so we all just like start
yelling but I’m quite comfortable with that now

Kerry : yeah

Kylie: but when I first started I was … (1.0) oh this is too much

Kerry: yeah … do you think it’s the nature of .. nature of the course itself?

Kylie: yep

Kerry: like t.. s.. the word relation’s in there and then .. but you’re all at each others’ throats is that it? [@@]

Kylie:  [@@]@@ … it’s also something that … um you can get very passionate about

Kerry: mm

Kylie: ‘cos it’s the way it’s the way our lives are lived and it’s the way … other people are living their lives so it’s … um …
(2.0) it is a ve::ry emotional course to do I think

Kerry: can you just explain .. a bit more about what it is exactly?

Kylie: er.. um it’s just .. it’s world politics is the major thing it’s looking at world economies it’s looking at inequalities
in the world why is .. why have we got people who are wealthy people who are poor … um … why can’t we contribute more of that
around … um … (2.0) it looks at securities so .. you know that’s always … (1.5) a pretty lively debate when we’re looking at
like what US spend on their defence and … things like that people just get … really emotional about it ‘cos it’s their whole …
some of them it’s their whole life and they’re not here studying it … they’re in r.. at .. in the town doing rallies or you know
it’s

Kerry: yeah

Kylie: they’re very passionate about it so … (1.0) they get wound up … (3.0)

Kerry: right … (1.5) um that sort of connects in with the .. the next question a little bit … um … do you think Australia is
really a multicultural country? [????]

Mark:                                     [yeah]

Kerry: ????????? ourselves but what is that?

Mark: yes

Kerry: yeah?

Mark: yes

Kerry: that’s a very definite yes @

Mark: um do you want us to explain?

Kerry: yes [@@]

Mark:     [alright] um well … (1.0) it’s pretty simple .. it’s just lots of different ethnic groups came from different
countries after World war Two … er … (1.0) so I guess you could say  that’s multicultural … um … (2.0)

Kerry: are you just thinking of the true definition of the word?

Mark: yeah why.. [what .. what did you mean]

Kerry:              [I s’pose I just] … I s’po.. does it work then? Does it work being a multicultural society … is it

Mark: um

Kerry: … harmonious … being a [multicultural]

Mark:                   [well]

Kerry: [so..]

Kylie:  [no]

Mark: I wouldn’t use the word harmonious … (1.5) like it goes alright

Kylie: it works to a degree … um I think we … in some areas … I think we’re really bad … in other areas …we’re probably ahead of
a lot of other developed countries in our … (3.5) sometimes we seem to accept our multiculturalism and other times we … (1.0)
wanna retain our … (1.5) white Australian British ..thing …I’m doing  an essay on this @ and I was up until like one o’clock
this @ morning doing this @ exact topic

Mark: yeah [well]

Kylie:            [but]

Mark: I’d say that it has to do with the .. the threat from outside being greater

Kylie: … (1.5) yeah

Mark: ‘cos … when there’s a threat from outside … being (?) together as a group … (1.5) so .. when there’s … (2.0) just um …
trying to think of an example … (2.0) er … (1.0)

Kerry: ????

Mark: like if someone … attacked Australia from another country then … it wouldn’t be so much of a … (1.0) big deal I mean …
people who are already citizens here … (2.0) to .. sort of join in with the defence force really (?)
Kylie: mm =

Mark:      = but .. when there’s not that .. when it’s just people living here … people get really petty about really small
things? … like er … (1.5) then when … someone … speaks a foreign language in a restaurant or something sometimes people get
annoyed? and that’s like … really picky but that might not be .. it’s like let it happen … when .. the threat from outside is
greater

Kylie: mm

Mark: so that’s why you’re more accepting of people once they’re in the group … when there’s more people outside

Kylie: mm

Mark: does anyone know what I’m tal[king about]?

Kylie:                               [yeah [yeah]]

Kerry:                                       [yeah] yeah

Kylie: I just don’t understand … (1.0) personally … the … (2.0) these people who get on the … (1.0) we are Australian and …
(1.0) be thankful you’re here … ‘cos … none of us are from here .. that’s just [from]

Kerry:            [mm]

Kylie:  .. this is my point of view … and that’s why … I think we’re .. we are … everyone … every white pers.. every .. non-
Aboriginal person in Australia … i.. we are all a part of the multi-cultural thing here

Kerry: mm

Kylie: I don’t feel any more Australian tha::n … some of the people in my class … who … were born here but their parents were
born in … (1.0) Serbia or Greece or whatever .. they’ve been born here as well and … (2.0) grown up here and so … that I think
they … can feel just as much Australian as I am … (1.0) you know that’s what I don’t understand about Australia’s … (2.5) you
know um … getting on the … white Anglo … thing

Kerry: mm … yeah … (2.0) um just going back to what you were saying there Mark about … when there’s a threat from outside …
don’t you think what happened after September 11th though was a sort of .. a threat because when .. when George Bush said okay
we’re all at war and we were sort of almost included in that? we were very involved in that for a while … um … I mean what did
we do to our Muslim people in Australia

Kylie: mm

Kerry: so that sort of .. doesn’t that show … (1.0) that we just saw them as a threat people who we’d never considered a threat
before we suddenly turned against a lot of … people just ‘cos they looked … (1.0) like ????????[?????]

Mark:                    [yeah]

Kerry: ???????????????????? that religion so that wasn’t re.. like we didn’t gel together in that way that you were saying it

Mark: well this kind of .. threat was always going to be different … because it was more like the enemy within

Kerry: mm … right

Mark: … it was more of a … (2.0) yeah … (1.0) you can’t have … people like in a country taking … er … citizens … (1.5) who are
probably … all part of one religious group … (1.0) carrying out terrorism and sort of so .. so it’s hard to pick … (1.5) who the
real enemy is?

Kerry: mm

Mark: so that’s when .. the blame’s gonna just bounce all over the place until it hits someone @

Kerry: mm

Mark: ‘cos they have to [blame someone]

Kylie:                        [but I think] in times like that … um … that .. the multicultural ??? of societies are all living
together? … ??? way .. and stick to their own society … like there was two girls … I used to live in Brunswick and there was two
s… like sixteen year old girls on a tram … with their scarves on … and th.. the day after that happened and the tram driver said
“I will not continue until you get off” … you know … that .. is .. pure ignorance because I .. don’t believe for a second that
they were any part in that terrorism attack .. but that was his way of s.. just putting … all Muslims in the same … (1.5) bunch
… and … (2.0) yeah we .. I think we were really pulled away for a while … mm

Kerry: mm

Kylie: whereas when the Sydney Olympics were on … we were all

Kerry: mm

Kylie: … yeah well (?) … we were all very proud of our Aboriginal heritage and we were all very proud of our multiculturalism
and that we all get along well and …

Kerry: mm … yeah … it’s that sort of thing that makes ????????????????

Kylie: yeah well I guess there was no threat with the Sydney Olympics

Kerry: @@@ yeah

Kylie: yeah … but … so … when you say y.. you think we’re better than some of the other developed countries … um … can you
explain that a bit more?

Kylie: … um

Kerry: I s’pose ??????? you were thinking of Britain and America?

Kylie: yeah maybe

Kerry: [????????????????]

Kylie: [that was just a bit of a sweeping statement] without anything behind it … um … (5.5) I think there’s a lot of
intolerance?

Kerry: in Australia? =

Kylie:                 = in Australia .. but I also think there is a lot of tolerance … at the same time there’s … I dunno it..
if it’s half-half I don’t think it is but .. I also think that … um … it’s .. it’s nice to know that there are some other
cultures that can come here and do well and be really happy here and that’s … that’s .. what I like to hear .. that that .. that
is possible that people can come here and be truly happy and … (1.0) they can do well financially and they can buy their home
and they can move up the social ladder if they want to and .. they can educate their children so that .. it’s nice to know that
it can be done … in some places

Kerry: uhuh

Kylie: maybe not … in others

Kerry: mm … (2.0) do you think it’s different … in the country?

Kylie: uhuh

Mark: [mm]

Kerry: [to] Melbourne or any of the other cities

Mark: yeah … it is … er … when you’re in the country .. it’s it’s .. small townish where everyone already knows everyone else

Kylie: mm

Mark: so you’re not .. generalising on people who you’ve never met before? you already know the person … (2.5) s. so you know
who everyone is … um maybe that … is (??) multiculturalism

Kerry:           so [you’re]

Mark:            [because]

Kerry: a bit more tolerant [?????]

Kylie:                    [you don’t] … you’re saying you don’t have a negative attitude

Mark: no I’m saying with people in the country

Kylie: ye[ah th]at’s

Mark:    [that’s]

Kylie: um that’s what I meant

Mark: yeah … yeah

Kerry: they don’t have a negative attitude

Mark: no well I just .. think that um … once you get to know the.. the people which is what happens in small towns you ge.. sort
of know everyone … you wouldn’t really be judging based on where they came from .. if you didn’t like ‘em it would just be
because … if you get to know them and they .. you just didn’t get along not because … you were looking at them and they look
like they’re from … another part of the world that you don’t .. know very much about

Kerry: okay =

Mark:        = but when you’re in the city you just .. you see people who you’ve never met before all the time in ..
interactions … sometimes you .. erm .. your subconscious part of your brain makes a judgement for you

Kerry: mm

Mark: s.. … see how .. what do you think about the country

Kylie: um .. I grew up in the country … and my experience .. to that was probably very .. different .. it’s .. it’s .. I’ve
never thought of it until you said then but it is quite true … if .. like there was two um Filipino boys that started at my
school … and that was a big thing ‘cos .. we’d never had Asians at our school … a:nd … we liked them … we all liked them .. and
that was maybe a personal thing we may have … our .. views of .. people from the Philippines may have been quite positive ‘cos
that was our only … insight into it … but in general I have to say that .. um … (1.0) this is … (1.0) my country town I don’t
know …

Mark: um where is [??]

Kylie:                 [in] Drouin Gippsland

Mark: ah =

Kylie:      = are … er so intolerant to anything that’s not white heterosexual … (1.0) Anglo … you know like .. my .. parents
have just moved .. house .. embarrassingly they’ve moved next door .. they’ve built a house next door (breath) .. and this um ..
couple from … the former Yugoslavia um .. have moved in from Sydney … um … Dad s:ays they don’t do a lot to help their own
situation because .. he was sort of saying … that I mean they’re friendly but he said when other people wave out (?) or whatever
they sometimes just don’t wave back or … but um I think that they would know no-one in that town .. because she goes into the
supermarket with her scarf on and … she’d probably be the only person .. well she would be .. the only person in Drouin who’d do
that .. and people would laugh at her

Kerry: mm

Kylie: I know she.. I know they’re not accepted .. in that town … and I think that’s really tragic ‘cos … no-one’s even given
them a go and … they’re just normal retired people that have come down to .. live in a nice peaceful surrounding and

Kerry : mm

Kylie: … um … (3.0) yeah I d.. I dunno I just found it .. really intolerant of anything that … didn’t .. fit their … (1.0)
normal category

Kerry: but like you said at school that was a positive experience for you [I wonder]

Kylie:                                                        [yeah]

Kerry: if kids are just .. you know kids are naturally more tolerant of people looking different they don’t quite .. they don’t
have that judgement there do they it’s okay they look different [and]

Kylie: [yeah]

Kerry: they’re kind of interested by it

Kylie: yeah

Kerry: but it’s not .. [the]

Kylie:                 [y..]

Kerry: re’s not a prejudice there because they look different [I don’t think]

Kylie:                                            [if it.. if there] is I think it’s coming from home

Kerry: yeah yeah ... well that’s true yeah I suppose so [‘cos]

Kylie:                                          [mm]

Kerry: naturally I think they’re just .. it wouldn’t worry them until [???]

Kylie:                                              [no]

Kerry: their parents … [and ??]

Kylie:                 [and because] these two boys were like really cool .. according to us you know they were .. they always
wore really good clothes and .. they could dance really well we were going through the stage of Saturday night discos and .. you
know they were really great dancers and everyone really admired them

Kerry: mm

Kylie: and I know that … (2.0) sort of whatever they’d wear .. the next week people would come to school with the same clothes
on or whatever and .. yeah it was probably a positive experience for … most of the students =

Kerry:                            = but it could easily have been the other way [couldn’t it]

Kylie:                                                        [yeah]

Kerry: ‘cos if that .. like [you]

Kylie:                        [yeah]

Kerry: said that was your only exposure to Filipinos

Kylie: yeah

Kerry: and it was a good one so [you’ve]

Kylie:                       [yeah]

Kerry: always had a positive attitude but it could’ve quite easily have…

Mark: something I’ve noticed is the scarves that some Muslims wear

Kerry: mm

Mark: even though they’re to do with the religion it’s kind of anti-social? like fitting in to our general society?

Kerry: [mm]

Mark:  [it’s] .. people .. when you’re ... friendly to someone you .. you look into their face and their hair and .. and
covering it up is just … (1.0) doesn’t really show us that you’re sort of .. I reckon when you when you’re judging someone you
always look at their face [and]

Kerry:                                                          [mm]

Mark: it’s er it’s just important like … you just wouldn’t trust someone with a mask on as much as you would ..

Kerry: yeah

Mark: without a mask and so um … [so it]

Kerry:                               [???]

Mark: doesn’t really help

Kylie: no I guess there’s a fine line there between keeping your own ... traditions?

Mark: yeah

Kylie: and .. assimilating into a new society?

Kerry: mm

Kylie: by … if they take it off they’re breaking with their traditions … [if]
Mark:                                               [yeah]

Kylie: they leave it on … people’ll be saying they’re not getting into their new society so …

Mark: so um .. probably the idea is that they’d have to ... sort of reach out in other ways … sort of talk to people a bit more

Kylie: yeah

Mark: sort of .. just interact a bit … like people know that it’s er … nothing bad they’re not trying to hide it’s just a
religious belief

Kylie: I had um … there was a girl in one of my classes last year … and I’ve never seen anything other than her eyes and .. I
always feel really bad ‘cos I’m sure I must walk past her and not say hello ‘cos I don’t know what …

Kerry: ye[ah]

Kylie:      [I] can’t tell whether it’s her or not … and that must happen …

Mark: if they have the ones wh.. where it’s just the eyes for all you know that could be a guy

Kylie: yeah y.. yeah I got .. like I just .. walking past her in the school yard and I can’t tell if ..

Kerry: mm

Kylie: it’s her or not so ..

Mark: yeah

Kylie: they must get that a lot with people that … whereas I’d walk past and go “oh hi Mark”

Kerry: mm

Kylie: I can’t .. and .. and she must s:ee all these people walking past her that she knows and not

Kerry: but she must understand that

Kylie: oh [absolutely and she’s …]

Kerry:     [?????????????????] each other they must

Kylie: yeah

Kerry: unless they know each other very well and see each [other]

Kylie:                                          [yeah]

Kerry: [a lot]

Kylie:  [be normal] to them .. yeah

Kerry: yeah so I suppose they wouldn’t take it the wrong way

Kylie: mm

Kerry: but I know what you mean about sort of like the … it.. it comes across as a mask which in our society would be quite
defensive … ‘cos another thing like that is eye contact … (1.0) um we look at people when we talk to them and a lot .. nations
don’t … now if I’m talking to you and I’m sort of looking over here and there it really looks .. I come across as quite shifty
.. and suspicious in our culture .. but a lot of other cultures .. it’s actually rude to look at people directly because it’s a
challenge so a lot of Indian cultures [for]

Kylie:                                         [mm]

Kerry: example =

Kylie:           = keep the head down

Kerry: will look away it’s actually a sign of respect … but when we see that we just have a totally different … view of someone
who doesn’t look you in the eye so you often sort of go … (1.0) “God all Indians are.. are really shifty” or something and it
just comes from this … purely cultural thing where .. they’re actually trying to be polite and do the right thing and we sort of
take it the wrong way

Kylie: mm

Kerry: … so it’s … (1.0) I guess .. and it .. the thing with the scarves is okay because people understand that that is
tradition and it’s religion … but the eye contact thing unless someone tells you that you’re gonna just get the wrong opinion
about people and it’s.. I think there’s so many misunderstandings across cultures

Kylie: yeah

Kerry: because of stuff like that that we just .. what’s polite in one culture just isn’t … in another

Kylie: mm

Kerry: .. yeah … (2.0)

Kylie: and people don’t always question whether it’s just a difference in culture if it’s not the same as their own then they
just .. you know they wouldn’t go “oh I wonder if eye contact in India is a different [thing]”

Kerry:               [absolutely]

Kylie: they’d just go “oh they’re looking elsewhere so they’re shifty

Kerry: [yeah]

Kylie:  [‘cos] in my culture you don’t do that” [so they might]

Kerry:                                      [that’s right]

Kylie: not question that .. their way of doing it might be just different and … that mean (?) doesn’t mean the same [as in]

Kerry:                      [that’s right]

Kylie: your own

Kerry: yeah … (3.0)

Kylie: we.. I’ve .. that’s what I’ve really enjoyed about travelling … is that … your .. you become … a minority and so you
don’t take for granted any of your own things because …

Kerry: yeah

Kylie: um … (1.0) their way of doing it for now is gonna be the way of doing it [because]

Kerry:                                                             [yeah] yeah

Kylie: you’re.. you’re in .. with them

Kerry: yeah yeah

Kylie: so you do start to question … the differences rather than just assume that your way … (1.0) was the [only way]

Kerry:               [that’s right] and this .. that whole country you’re in are doing it all wrong

Kylie: mm

Kerry: yeah so you go to India and nobody looks at you and you still think they’re all shifty

Kylie: [mm]

Kerry: [and] it’s like .. at some stage it’s gonna have to click that .. okay this @ [is the way they do it but it means]

Kylie:                                                        [maybe this means] some[thing else]

Kerry:             [something] else [yeah]

Kylie:                         [yeah]

Kerry: yeah

Kylie: yeah … (3.0)

Kerry: what do you think um … and going back to our culture .. what do you think a good person is … if I asked you to write down
a list of ten qualities … [what]

Mark:                                        [um]

Kerry: would they be

Mark: honesty … (2.5) er … (2.5)

Kylie: that’d be number one I think

Mark: yeah

Kylie: yeah … (2.0) um … (1.0) someone that would make you .. make you happy?

Kerry: uhuh

Kylie: someone that can .. who you can have a laugh with … someone that’s um … (1.0) you can trust?

Mark: yeah … that sort of goes with the honesty

Kylie: yeah and [someone being ??]

Mark:            [being trustworthy] generally …  um … (3.5) someone who can … (2.0) laugh at themselves

Kylie: mm

Kerry: mm

Mark: … (1.5) ‘cos people aren’t very fun to be around if they .. they can’t make fun of themselves

Kylie: mm

Mark: can’t see the lighter side of their own … (1.0) mis.. mis.. guided ??? along the ??? er …

Kylie: someone who cares about you … and is interested in you

Mark: yeah .. so s:omeone who’s not self-centred

Kylie: yeah … (10.0!!!!!!!) someone who sees the good in everyone? .. well not everyone but sees the good in people?

Kerry: mm

Mark: yeah so … (1.5) they’re not shallow then

Kylie: yeah

Mark: um … (9.0) I can’t really think of anything else

Kerry: ?????????????????????

Kylie: @@@@

Kerry: ????