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[Presenter 1: Tony Delroy, M] Eighteen minutes past ten eighteen past nine in Queensland eighteen past seven in Western Australia. Navigating the world of treatment for menopause can be a nightmare. In the last month we've seen the cancellation of a seven year trial in the states <,> sending more shockwaves through the community. Already a topic that causes a lotta confusion hormone replacement therapy or H R T has been controversial since its widespread use in the early nineties but does that mean it's not beneficial for some people. Menopause is different for each woman <,> uh some women suffer few side effects during the change as it's affectionately known and uh others suffer severe weight loss loss of sex drive uh mood swings and of course the dreaded hot flushes. So uh how do we make sense of everything that's on offer. To help us out tonight Dr Barry Wren is a guest. S one of Australia's leading researchers in gynaecological research and the author of a book called Understanding Menopause and Hormonal Therapy a Woman's Guide and uh he joins me in the studio tonight Barry good to see you.

[Expert 1: Barry Wren, M] Yeah good evening Tony.

[P1] Well uh let's start out at the beginning. The change the menopause what in fact is it.

[E1] Well it's it's basically only just a time when a woman runs out of her own hormonal uh um production from her ovaries <P1 mm>. It begins around about the age of forty-five it's usually completed by the age of fifty-five. There's an average of about fifty-one years for women in Australia. And when it does those hormones which um influence the way cells will respond have just stopped being produced. And as a result of that women begin to deteriorate in certain areas. For some women it's uh disastrous and for other women they just as you said sail through without any problems <P1 mm> whatsoever.

[P1] I I suppose uh menopause is a little more poignant at the moment simply because a lot of women waiting longer in life <,> uh before they uh have babies.

[E1] Uh exactly so I mean I I saw a lady only today who's aged thirty-five and is just going through the menopause at this moment. Her mother went through the menopause at the age of forty and uh uh her sister also went through uh at the age of thirty-eight so this lady at the age of thirty-five is now just starting her perimenopausal phase. She will almost certainly be completely out of all hormones within the next year and uh she's going to have another fifty years of uh menopausal uh symptoms and problems if we don't do something about it.

[P1] Gee whiz. Uh I I suppose that's a huge shock to her was she planning children or.

[E1] Well it wasn't a shock because she expected something like this. Uh she's already had four children so that's <P1 mm oh okay> uh uh she she was quite expecting that she's a very intelligent lady with a university degree and so on and so she was not unaware of the problems and she came along to get some help from this stage onwards.

[P1] One of the first things we need to have a look at tonight I think is the study in the United States <,> it's been going for seven years and uh it was uh cancelled because of uh the the some recent findings in the last month. Uh a lotta people not thrilled to death with this study uh a lotta people also supporting it. Um can you can explain to us exactly what the seven year study's all about.

[E1] Yeah sh sure Tony there's actually two studies done by the same group it's the National Heart Blood and uh Lung Institute in the United States. Back in early nineteen-nineties they decided that because hormonal therapy appeared to be doing such a great job for women <,> and helping to prevent uh heart attacks uh osteoporosis uh quite a few other problems <,> that uh they should do woo call a prospective randomised blinded study. So they recruited women into this study and they were given two types of hormonal therapy they were given either oestrogen plus progestogen or they were given oestrogen alone. The women who had the oestrogen alone were women who had a hysterectomy and the women who were on the combined therapy uh were women who still had their uterus intact. There were sixteen-thousand-six-hundred in the women taking hormonal uh combined hormonal therapy <,> and about eleven-thousand in the study taking oestrogen alone. Two years ago they released the study results of the first one that's the sixteen-thousand-six-hundred women <,> and it suggested that women who were taking hormonal therapy at that stage had an increased risk of heart attacks stroke breast cancer but a decreased risk of osteoporosis. Just two years later they stopped the oestrogen alone arm of the study because uh there didn't appear to be any major benefit and there was a slight increase in the risk of stroke. And they didn't cancel it they just said that it didn't appear after seven years to be any major advantage of carrying the study on any further <P1 mm>. But there was no increased risk of uh heart attacks there was no increased risk of cancer in that group. So the big thing was why were all these studies showing some adverse results <,> and why were there differences between the two studies. Well when you look at the two studies there are some major flaws with the way they were structured. Most women in Australia going through the menopause are between forty-five and fifty-five years of age <,> and that's when they start getting their symptoms and they require some hormonal therapy. The studies in the United States recruited women who were somewhere between fifty and eighty years of age never having taken hormonal therapy beforehand. The <inaudible>.

[P1] So wuh when you say hormonal therapy that's even the pill.

[E1] Even the pill yeah.

[P1] Okay.

[E1] Most of these women uh had uh no symptoms whatsoever no hot flushes no sweats and that was deliberately chosen because they didn't want women <,> to enter the study with some hot flushes who would either go onto hormonal therapy and find out that they were um participated or not go onto the hormonal therapy go onto a placebo and still have all their symptoms. So all these women had to have no symptoms whatsoever when they entered the study. Their average age was sixty-three years <P1 mm> which was quite considerably almost fifteen years older than the menopause. When we look at their uh demography we find that um most of them were very very overweight and matter of fact over a third of them were regarded as being obese. Thirty-seven percent were being treated for high blood pressure and other cardiac problems. Twelve and a half percent were being treated for high cholesterol levels. Four and a half percent were diabetic. Um there are fifty percent of them were smokers or ex smokers. Now all these factors increase the risk of cardiac disease so you take this group of uh women who had no symptoms with a high risk of having a cardiac disease and give them a an oestrogen by mouth. Uh you might get a slight increase in heart attacks and stroke and that's exactly what they found. It was not surprising and we feel it is <inaudible>.

[P1] So you f believe it was a self fulfilling prophecy almost.

[E1] Virtually so it was a flawed suh it was a good study I must say uh a a very well conducted study but on the wrong group of people. Uh here in Australia most of the women are not in that particular category they're not that old they don't have those underlying conditions.

[P1] Mm. Well uh f uh we'll start up with the pluses um uh mm perhaps you can describe what an average woman who was starting to go through the change would receive. Um as a treatment and what the benefits <E1 okay> of that was.

[E1] W we've already said that the majority women going through the menopause will get hot flushes and sweats and they will have a dry vagina there will be an increase in uh osteoporotic changes. If they take hormonal therapy from the time of their menopause the beginning of all these symptoms then we can be sure they will have relief of those symptoms their vagina will remain moist and the risk of getting osteoporosis will be reduced considerably <P1 mhm>. The a large group of studies something like about a hundred and twenty that I've looked at which have been carried over the last forty years show that women who take hormonal therapy <,> from the time of the menopause without any underlying problems have a reduced risk of heart attacks and a reduced risk of uh some of the other major cardiovascular events. And uh this is something which is not shown up in this particular study this study suggest it's adverse <P1 mm>. Which is un.

[P1] But you think it's a positive.

[E1] I think it's a positive yes I think it could be made a positive but women have to be very careful about. Obviously if a woman comes into my rooms at any stage at all who has some condition which would suggest that she may have an underlying uh heart attack or problems there I would be very very chary about giving her some hormonal therapy and if she wanted hormonal therapy I would probably give it through the skin or some other means <,> rather than through the gut and the mouth and the liver.

[P1] Mm now um th they're the some of the positives negatives.

[E1] Negatives hormonal therapy if it's given in an inappropriate way can produce uh things like bloating it can produce some breakthrough bleeding if the uterus is still present. Can produce some breast discomfort that's mastalgia because of the changes to the breast <,> um they're the basic things which most women will have as an adverse effect and there are some local things uh sometimes taking it by mouth will produce some nausea uh a few problems like that. If you take it through the skin it'll produce some skin irritation. Are suh uh some adverse change but we can always readjust those hitches to suit each particular patient.

[P1] Mm I suppose where we are moving into areas where we're we're not certain and that is the length of uh treatment for hormone replacement therapy <,> uh because it's a relatively new therapy um I suppose we're we're s stepping off the cliff cliff to a degree.

[E1] Oh uh can I correct you on this Tony it's not relatively new it started in nineteen-thirty-two so it's over seventy years of use of hormonal replacement therapy now. We have a lot of experience with it's use <P1 mm> and um there are now very long m major studies where women have been taking well over thirty years and have a very good outcome from that uh period of time. Matter of fact back in July of two-thousand-and-two when all this <,> first of the uh major negative studies came out my phone rang hot from patients ringing in <,> and one patient rang in I just couldn't remember her her history very well but I asked her how long she'd been taking therapy. And she said thirty-six years and I said how do you feel she said great I'm the semi finals of the club championship but I wanna keep on going <P1 mm>. Now y'know th ah that's one swallow doesn't make a summer but the big thing is that women can take it while ever they wish to. They need to be monitored the whole time though.

[P1] Mm okay so I mean what six monthly or yearly or.

[E1] I generally see a patient every year when she's on hormonal therapy I probably see her twice in the first year when she starts on treatment to make sure everything's fine. But after that once every year from that point onwards.

[P1] Mm breast cancer is that an issue.

[E1] Yes breast cancer is there's there's no doubt that um women who have breast cancer uh l let me just sort of uh go back one step. It takes a long time for a single cell which has undergone an a series in mutations to eventually grow into a mass that we can actually see or feel. Some people have estimated it may take up fifteen years. If a woman is taking hormonal therapy whilst that uh cancer is growing it'll grow faster and it will show up earlier. This may be a negative or it may be a positive for her <,> but there's no doubt that women who have cancer probably shouldn't be taking oestrogen.

[P1] Mm it is a matter of fact that as women grow older the percentage of women likely to get breast cancer increases.

[E1] Oh yes it's an age related disease. At the age of fifty there's about one in a hundred women will have breast cancer and it doubles itself virtually every decade from there on so at the age of ninety it's around about fifteen per hundred women will be found to have breast cancer. So it just keeps on increasing every decade.

[P1] Mm is there any connection between breast cancer and hormone replacement therapy.

[E1] Well yeah there is I mean um men get breast cancer at about wuh only one uh man for every hundred women so it's a basically it's a female dominated uh type cancer but that relates to the number of times that the cells are multiplying in what are relatively large breasts compared to a male's breast. So we have a a problem of size and the number of cells which are present <,> but cancer is a series of mutations and the they're a sporadic spontaneous and sequential mutations which take place within cells anywhere in our body including the breast and hormones increase the rate that those cells are undergoing mutations but don't cause the mutations.

[P1] Mm Barry when uh when you're seeking advice on menopause should you consult your local G P or should you find yourself a specialist in hormone therapy.

[E1] Oh I think the majority of G Ps are fairly well uh aware of the menopause itself. What worries the general practitioner at present is the fear of making a mistake <P1 mm>. Of not doing the right thing.

[P1] Can be very expensive these days.

[E1] Right yeah it's a it's a terrible thought and the majority or general practitioners are fighting shy of it right now because of all the publicity. The majority of general practitioners don't get a chance to read all the uh fine detail which I have to spend time reading or some of my colleagues have to spend time reading. So they're not always up to date with all the information but rather than give a negative point of view to a patient they'll give s often no point of view at all they wih they will often say to the patient don't take it uh and it's a negative one without knowing all the facts.

[P1] Alternative therapies uh I mean how do you feel about them and uh I I know you were saying during the news that you wouldn't personally uh prescribe that for anyone. Ah but you you don't feel opposed to to <inaudible>.

[E1] No I I have no opposition to um alternative therapies uh because most of them uh wuh all the research which has been done on them show that they don't have any major effect whatsoever. However if a patient or a doctor believes that they're going to help them <,> uh from a e m a from a placebo point of view they can be very very helpful they can have people believe that they're helping and that's very good and if people believe in something I think that's there's a great help to that. What distresses me is that sometimes people take them for the wrong reason uh with the wrong expectation. Uh obviously um most of these alternative therapies will not help things like osteoporosis or prevent a heart attack or <,> do something like that but they won't cause breast cancer and they won't cause some of the other diseases which may be um associated with hormonal therapy.

[P1] Mm menopause is uh as we've said earlier a difficult time for the person going through it but it can also be quite a difficult time for partners and for uh for friends as well.

[E1] Oh yes.

[P1] Um is there anything people can do to uh sort of ease ease that particular time because uh y'know obviously um a person going through this period ih thi they are a bit racked and uh and uh can pass on that uh <,> unpleasantness to others.

[E1] You you're right I mean but knowledge is power knowledge is everything so I believe that both men and women partners uh people who have any experience their children <,> should all try and learn as much as they can about the problems associated with the menopause so they can help uh the person who's suffering from the problems understand it or take care of them or advise them in some way. And in a way I mean I'm not trying to uh say go and buy my book but uh what I'm trying to say in my the book which I've just written. I'm trying to give information to women and anybody else who cares to read it exactly what is happening what it all means and I think it's important to gain that insight and that information.

[P1] Mm I mean would it benefit some women to get some psychological help sometimes if they if they feel that they've been impacted greatly by the by the change.

[E1] I I think that um the menopause doesn't produce psychiatric disturbance let me say that <P1 mm> uh m changes to a person's body can accentuate an underlying problem. Now if the woman uh who in question does have an underlying psychiatric problem which is accentuated then it may help her to see some psychological or psychiatric help but basically <,> it's in the hands of the general practitioner who looks at the total picture sees the patient and tries to decide exactly what areas of help are needed for that particular patient.

[P1] Mm how much fine tuning goes on with the uh y'know getting it right for the patient so that uh obviously you c you can't uh y'know uh one cap fit fits all uh y'know you you require some s s some tinkering at the edges.

[E1] Yeah it's uh look it's very important. I give every patient something like uh about half an hour to an hour to try and find out what uh what the patient feels like what's bothering them and so on like that. And in trying to decide on the type of therapy I take into account their background their physical ah situation other things which may be affecting them. In the hope that in some way uh I can get the therapy regimen right for them. Uh and a lotta doctors do exactly the same but time is the big constraint for this and when you're trying to decide on um a type of treatment sometimes it's much easier for a doctor just to pluck something off the shelf and if that doesn't work say ah well it's not going to work. That's an unfortunate way of doing it <P1 mm>. But I always believe in getting a second opinion for all these issues.

[P1] Yeah so quite often uh the first treatment won't be the last treatment.

[E1] It's uh sometimes I've changed my treatment I was looking at a patient I saw today who's been with me for over twenty years and we've changed her treatment six times during that particular twenty years but each time things have got better for her and she's been reasonably happy at this stage.

[P1] Mm <,> uh the book is called Understanding Menopause and Hormonal Therapy A woman's guide Dr Barry Wren is my guest tonight. I'm just wondering whether uh you've got some questions that you would like to put um it it is a very difficult uh area and um I I guess a lotta people don't fully understand exactly w what they're getting s themselves in for when it does happen. Uh and uh perhaps uh you as uh as a husband or friend would also like to ask a question maybe you're going through a difficult time as your partner <,> is uh is taking on the challenge of the change.

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[P1] And it is now twenty-two minutes to the latest A B C news Dr Barry Wren my guest tonight uh we're talking about his book Understanding Menopause and Hormonal Therapy and uh a second edition just out the first one sold through which is good news for you <laughs>. Um l I think at this stage we might uh talk to a few people about some of these issues. Uh Carol you you took H R T for ten years.

[Caller 1: Carol, F] Yes Tony it's lovely to talk to you.

[P1] Thanks Carol.

[C1] <inaudible> I haven't got through to you before <both laugh>.

[P1] Welcome uh y y you wanted to talk about why you decided to stop.

[C1] Yes um I was taking Premarin and Provera Dr Wren for for ten years I started in my late forties and um I had uh a very good um gynaecologist who used to see me every six months and uh and monitored me quite closely. But um I decided that uh when this survey came out that I would stop and my G P said I think maybe you've taken it long enough and uh the doctor I was going to retired and I had to go to another doctor and he said the survey was a lot of hooey and that it wouldn't bah matter if I went back on it but I decided not to <,> but since then I've had hot flushes which are just dreadful but um that's the only thing and so my doctor put me onto patches and I started having terrible periods again so I went off the patches and I didn't have any breakthrough bleeding when I was on the others well hormone replacement therapy. I just wondered what you thought about um um this situation I I have felt that maybe I was on it long enough.

[E1] Carol it's very difficult to uh say y you <C1 yes> should or shouldn't be on it at all you're the person who's in charge of your own life.

[C1] Yes true.

[E1] And um I believe that women take hormonal therapy really to improve the quality of their life <C1 mm mm>. Y'know your life appears not to be as good as it should be and it could be that if you took the appropriate hormonal therapy you'd be fine <C1 mm>. Now the patches appear not to have done the job for you <C1 no> but I can assure you there are many other types of therapies <,> which you could try <C1 mm> you could even go back onto the Premarin and Provera and you'd probably do just as well on that.

[C1] Really.

[E1] I wouldn't have any hesitation in saying that if your quality of life is diminished then probably you should be back onto it.

[C1] Mm.

[E1] Mm.

[C1] But but how long do you keep on taking these.

[E1] Well it's a very personal thing you see I have some patients who've tried stopping it at the age of seventy and or even as l late as eighty <C1 mm> and their problems all come back <C1 oh> and just feel dreadful and they go back onto it <C1 I was shocked>. But they've been on it for twenty to thirty years <inaudible>.

[C1] I was shocked that I would start to have these symptoms I thought I'll be over it all by then <laughs>.

[E1] Yeah I know a lotta people think that it's only a temporary thing.

[C1] Yes.

[E1] Um twenty percent of women go through the menopause and never have a hot flush or a problem at all <C1 yes>. Uh eighty percent do have some problems but as the years go by that diminishes <C1 mhm> but at the age of eighty-five <C1 mhm> uh twenty percent of women still have all those problems <C1 oh no> <C1 laughs>.

[P1] Something to look forward to Carol.

[C1] Thanks very much.

[P1] No problem whatsoever thanks <laughs>. Uh Helen um y you're sixty-six and uh.

[Caller 2: Helen, F] Yeah I'm still having hot flushes <P1 mm> um I just wondered how long does it go on for <inaudible> <E1 laughs> <E1 well> taken hormone replacement therapy <E1 yeah> and I've got these dreadful hot flushes when does it end.

[E1] Well for you it may never end or it may diminish as time goes on <C2 inaudible> you can never tell now no one has any knowledge as to who will continue and who won't <C2 right>. Um I just say to women who are suffering as you are <,> to go onto hormonal therapy get under the uh care of a good doctor who will look after you and monitor the whole program for you <C2 mm> and uh just take care of yourself.

[C2] So there's no virtual like they say oh you're fifty you shouldn't be having this <E1 laughs> something like that.

[E1] No <C2 inaudible> I wish it was like that and I keep on trying to remind people that there is no such thing as uh this is just going to last a few years <C2 mm>.

[P1] Helen when when they said sixty is the new forty you see <all laugh> unfortunately it has its complications <all laugh> good on you thanks for that. Viv um you want to talk about the pill if you're already having uh ye osteoporosis.

[Caller 3: Viv, F] Yeah thanks Tony yeah um I've already got osteoporosis I've had it since I was in my twenties and I'm not at menopause yet I'm forty-three now. But um I plan to go on H R T later on to stop any more osteoporosis later on. But I was wondering should I be on does the pill make any difference to bones.

[E1] No well the pill is really only just another form of hormonal therapy <C3 inaudible> it's a stronger uh type of therapy it contains uh similar to sorts of progestogens to the um hormonal therapy but the oestrogen that's used is a synthetic one called ethanol oestradiol and uh that's much more potent. But um uh it is <C3 inaudible> it's very similar in every other way but if you have osteoporosis now you may be better off going onto one of what we call the bisphosphonates they're a group of chemicals which <,> help uh build calcium into bone and make the bone a bit stronger.

[C3] Yes that's that's uh things like Fosamax isn't it.

[E1] That's right yes.

[C3] Well they wuh they won't allow premenopausal women on it unless they've already had a fracture. Uh and um.

[E1] Well they will let them on it <C3 inaudible> but the government won't give you the uh P B S uh rebate uh you have to pay the full price yourself <C3 yes yes> unfortunately. Don't go out and break a bone deliberately to get it. It's cheaper though.

[C3] No no I I do think that I should break my big toe but <C3 and E1 laugh>. Um could I also ask for older people my mother didn't start H R T until she was in her late sixties. And because I was afraid about her having osteoporosis and I suggested and then with the scare she went off it. Is there any danger in take taking it after the menopause is well and truly over or.

[E1] Oh no no I mean I've got women who come to me uh I had a lady who uh was widowed went through the menopause um everything was fine she didn't take anything at all till she turned sixty-eight and she developed a new relationship a sexual relationship and uh she found that the vagina was so dry she couldn't have intercourse and she started on hormonal therapy then and she's very happy <C3 yep> and her partner's very happy now mm.

[C3] Okay thank you very much.

[P1] Thanks Viv uh great to hear from you Joan uh uh you have a a a health issue here you've got uh superficial blood clots.

[Caller 4: Joan, F] That's that's correct yes yeah I had a hysterectomy twelve months ago. I've been put on Premarin six point six-two-five and this is my second superficial blood clot I do have varicose veins would you advise me to continue um.

[E1] Uh I wouldn't give you anything by mouth. Um when uh oestrogen goes through the mouth and the gut it passes directly to the liver ninety percent of the uh oestrogen goes to the liver where it stimulates the liver cells to work better <C4 mhm>. And part of the production of the liver cells are the proteins which produce coagulation <C4 right> so taking it by mouth tends to increase the risk of getting a coagulation whereas if you take it through the skin <C4 yeah> it avoids that and you can have the benefit of the oestrogen without the stimulus to the liver at that point.

[C4] Oh I see okay so you uh through the skin and not through the mouth uh um and would should I go off the tablets while I have these uh superficial blood clots or.

[E1] Oh yes yes I mean you're I wouldn't take anything by mouth if you've got those uh <C4 yes>. Mind you it's it's the deep venous thromboses which we're really concerned about if you've got some superficial thromboses you probably shouldn't take the tablets by mouth but you be d on a patch.

[C4] On the patch oh that's good okay thank you very much for that.

[P1] Thanks Joan great to hear from you uh Judy um you you want to talk about nonhormonal medications.

[Caller 5: Judy, F] Yes um my G P prescribed a something called l Livial.

[E1] Livial yes that's a that's a <C5 w> an interesting steroid compound.

[C5] I just sorta wondered what kind of y'know long term studies have or has been done or <,> has it not been around l long enough to have had um that much experience so <inaudible>.

[E1] Well it's been av uh available in U K for oh over fifteen years now so there's fair amount of a sort of background to it. In Australia it's been here for five or six years and uh we've also had reasonable experience with it. Um it's a steroid compound which has uh basically a progestogenic and an androgenic activity normally that's a male type of hormone but it can be converted by uh enzymes in your system into an oestrogen. And uh so it has a weak oestrogenic activity as well and it's quite good and we particularly uh recommend it for women who've got sore breasts and so on like that.

[C5] So it can more or less take the place of hormonal therapy if you don't want to go down that<inaudible>.

[E1] Well it yeah it is a form of hormonal therapy I mean we we <C5 inaudible> it's it's a steroid the same as uh oestrogen progesterone and tostesterone are steroids so it's got um a steroid activity but it's been chemically manufactured and it's not similar to the um uh it's it's one which you wouldn't extract in a human or you can't y get from a human it's gotta be manufactured.

[C5] Would you have the same possibilities of um the various medical risks <E1 well uh> associated with the <inaudible>.

[E1] The one study which was done in the United Kingdom called the million women study suggested that the uh Livial actually increased the risk of uh breast cancer being diagnosed. Uh however there's a little bit of doubt shown uh or expressed about that million women study because of what we call a cohort study and there are a lot of sort of um problems with its actually sort of uh structure which uh we can't always be sure. We really need to do some uh double blind randomised studies with Livial to see whether it has an adverse effect on breast cancer.

[C5] Would you be happy enough to prescribe Livial to to your patients.

[E1] Oh I do indeed yes I have quite a number of patients on Livial and I have no real problems with its use. But I I must warn people that there is not that nothing's perfect in life and Livial may turn out to be uh as adverse as uh oestrogen is thought to be adverse on breast cancer. But at present I believe it's perfectly okay.

[C5] So for what kind of y'know term therapy could you sort of feel that you could safely prescribe it for like five years ten years.

[E1] At this stage uh again like uh women who um have um hor ordinary hormonal replacement therapy they should take it while ever they feel it is doing them some good with their quality of life. Uh doctors shouldn't be pontificating so you must stop it after five years the <C5 no> patient must make up their own mind <inaudible>.

[C5] Studies have indicated <inaudible>.

[P1] Alright Judy thanks for the call great to hear from you Lynne uh you you've actually written a paper on this and and you've got a slightly different view.

[Caller 6: Lynne, F] Yes um my uh just briefly my own personal history was um <clears throat> I'm in my mid fifties now but I started going through perimenopause uh at about the age of about thirty-seven-thirty-eight and uh ran into terrible problems unbelievable problems couldn't think straight hot flushes couldn't sleep ye the whole lot and uh the doctor put me on the usual uh Premarin and Provera. Which just made me violently ill even though it did solve the um menopause caused um problems that I was having <P1 mhm> so I had to swap to um finally when it was a available I had to swap to the uh skin um absorbed uh oestrogen and progesterone uh and I used a natural oestrogen and a natural progesterone and uh I'll explain the reason for that because most of the problems that women have um with uh things like premenstrual tension endometriosis breast cancer fiboy fibroid tumours of the uterous <,> et cetera and menstrual flooding are caused by oestrogen dominance. And uh this is where the oestrogen does not balance with the progesterone that we have because a woman is getting too much oestrogen um by an intake of xenoestrogens or foreign oestrogens which the body accepts as oestrogen but they're toxic and they don't act as natural oestrogen and they get these xenoestrogens well they're all <P1 mm> throughout the environment they're in pesticides whence they enter the food chain all petrochemical products <,> they're in cosmetics detergents cleaning products there's uh a compound called nonylphenyl <P1 yeah> as well as um plastics where they're absorbed to any food stored in 'em <E1 mhm>. So women are getting too much oestrogen and yet when they go on hormonal therapy the first thing the doctor does is give them more oestrogen.

[P1] Barry <inaudible>.

[E1] Well uh that's uh the s hypothesis you're putting forward is the one put out by John Lee <C6 that's right>. Um John Lee's an interesting man I think it's worth making a comment about him he unfortunately he died last October and I used to have a few arguments with John at various times. John was a ph <,> pharmacist and back in nineteen-seventy-four he attended a lecture by Ray Peat. Uh at which Ray Peat said it would be a good idea if we could give progesterone um by some means rather than the mouth because progesterone is broken down so rapidly in the gut and the liver. So he suggested that it would be reasonable to give that progesterone as a cream but no one had ever used it then so John Lee as being a pharmacist and then just being a general practitioner in seventy-four went back and developed his own progesterone cream. He then started a company called Avion Pharmaceutical Company uh to produce this progesterone cream and he spent the next uh thirty years of his life uh trying to promote the idea and he wrote most of the um points in little pamphlets about how good it was. When people began to criticise him because it didn't have any real scientific basis he then made up the story which you've just uh told us very nicely and um yeah of course it doesn't hold up because there's no scientific backing for it at all. We've done some of the studies and there's a huge number of uh people have done studies on this particular type of hypothesis of John Lee's. It's just shown to be uh bit of oh rubbish really doesn't hold any kind of water really and I feel sorry that you've been sort of misled by that uh hypothesis of John Lee's but uh it's it's not uh a scientifically valid uh proposition.

[P1] Alright Lynne thank thanks for raising it Edith um uh you wanna talk about alternative uh medication a and self medication.

[Caller 7: Edith, F] Oh that's correct yes I've got three issues to bring up. Um first of all I'm forty-nine years old uh and I'm not obese I'm not a smoker um but I did have um an ovary removed when I was forty-two. Um I was extremely disappointed that the gynaecologist didn't discuss with me how this would affect my menopau uh menopause <P1 mm>. Does ovary removal actually bring an early onset of menopause.

[E1] Yes did you have a just one ovary removed <C7 that's right> or both.

[C7] Yep.

[E1] I'm sorry.

[C7] One.

[E1] Just <P1 just the one> the one.

[C7] Yep.

[E1] The other one that should still I mean it's like removing a kidney um the other ovary will go on functioning until it runs out of its normal uh eggs and that's usually about the normal of um forty-five to fifty-five.

[C7] Yeah.

[E1] Uh have you uh started the menopause as yet.

[C7] Oh yes yeah.

[E1] You have yeah. It it coulda been produced by the um surgery uh obviously I mean you can ha have interference with uh the blood supply to the remaining ovary under these conditions that might have uh faded away a bit earlier that it woulda done under normal conditions.

[C7] Okay. Well the second issue I wanna bring up is um the issue of alternative therapy it actually does work um because I've refused to go on H R T so I've been experimenting for qu well ever since I've been forty-two <E1 yeah> <P1 mhmm>. Um but I have found that of course it's only short term and it may last for three or four months and then y'know you you look at then you have to look at self medicating. And that's another worry for me is is ha I'm on three alternative therapy medications now. Uh I don't know who to turn to to say yes that's too much or no y'know you shouldn't be doing that because I I don't know if there's much research on self medication <,> but I find it difficult there's no registry to say that there's specialists in menopause that look at both alternative therapies and H R T. But um y'know I don't have that choice and uh I find it difficult how do I ascertain what is what is the a a good level to to maintain alther alternative therapy.

[E1] Well uh there are two parts to it uh that you've explained uh and we've done a lot of work a lotta people have done some research on alternative therapies by the way um. The big thing is that we look at what is natural the previous uh caller um Lynne I think it was talked about natural oestrogen um possibly implying that the pharmaceutical companies don't use natural oestrogen well they do but um you produce from your ovary something called seventeen beta oestradiol <C7 yeah>. Which is very rapidly uh metabolised to uh something called oestrone which is much weaker than oestradiol <C7 yeah> and then eventually it's metaboli that again is metabolised within probably two or three hours to oestriol which is the excretory product. Now um those things are found in every woman's body throughout her normal reproductive life when she goes through the menopause um the levels fall down she stops producing oestradiol but there is still some oestrone being produced and thats being produced by conversion of other products what we call precursors sometimes from the adrenal gland sometimes from other areas into oestrone and that's uh reasonably active uh throughout most women's lives but whether it's enough for your needs depends on so many different factors. Uh for the majority of women going through the menopause it's not enough and they need some top up.

[C7] Mm yeah well it certainly might be in my case uh since the hot flushes I can tolerate but it's the sleep deprivation <,> <E1 yeah> that uh causes the problems you you're waking up three-four times a night.

[E1] You you probably need to have your levels of uh oestradiol measured <C7 uh huh> and as the if there is sufficient oestradiol there it will act on your brain and the pituitary phos uh pituitary gland to um <,> uh reduce the level of follicular stimulating hormone and I use the level of follicular stimulating hormone and oestradiol as an indication as to whether the patient is getting sufficient oestrogen or not. Um and if you see somebody with some expertise in the area you will probably find that they will measure those and tell you whether you have got sufficient uh oestrogen in there to stop your hot flushes.

[P1] Thanks uh Edith uh Karen you you wanna talk about attitudes to this whole issue.

[Caller 8: Karen, F] Well yes I do I've had I'm one of the alternate people and I've had fantastic results not only through my menopausal time but with other bodily problems through changing my diet 'n' going back to foods that don't come from a factory <,> and I h um haven't gone onto H R T I don't like the stories I've heard about the suffering of mares in the northern hemisphere to get the necessary oestrogen for H R T. Um.

[E1] Ye you're talking about Premarin there I think.

[C8] Look I don't know um which specific I'm talking about it's the horse stories that bother me so much but I also want to make two strong points it isn't menopause isn't necessarily something to be suffered and also it isn't just a hormonal and bodily change I've found incredible new wisdoms have come to me <,> about life through my menopausal years so it's not just a hormonal and bodily change it's far broader than that.

[E1] Oh you're quite right I mean <,> I don't want you to feel that um uh women have to have it or have t h suh h suffer any symptoms. Uh quite a large number of women have no problems whatsoever going through the menopause either <,> physically or mentally or uh uh emotionally in any way at all but others are affected and we should not e or nobody should say oh because I didn't have any problems then somebody else shouldn't have any either.

[P1] Mm Karen thank you very much for your thoughts uh Ruth um you you want a word about relationship between migraines and the menopause.

[Caller 9: Ruth, F] Yes thank you Tony. Um I've been suffering migraines for about twenty years I get about two a month always around the same time <,> and my doctor keeps telling me that when I go through menopause they'll go away. Um I'm forty-nine I'm just premenopausal I suppose although I'm still getting regular periods. I'm just wondering if I go onto H R T if I need to. What's gunna happen with my migraines.

[E1] Oh that's a very good question and uh thank you for asking it. The big thing to remember is that both men and women get migraines so it's <C9 mm> not just uh to do with hormones <C9 mhmm>. However if hormones are a cause for uh migraine headaches it's usually because there is some triggering either a high level or a low level suddenly occurring <C9 mhm>. So women who are menstruating <,> normally of course the levels of hormones go up and down they <C9 mm> fluctuate <C9 yes> throughout the month and it's that fluctuation or rise and fall that so often triggers the migraine <C9 that's right> headache <C9 yes>. When you go through the menopause if your hormo if your migraines are produced by hormones taking a continual daily dosage should relieve that <C9 ah okay> particular problem. Or if the levels go right down and you've got no hormones at all present and there's no f triggering their either <C9 no> they will probably disappear.

[C9] So w w perhaps then it would it even be it may prove helpful to go onto H R T just to for the migraines.

[E1] Oh it it is I mean I have a lot of patients who are in their twenties and thirties that I have treated and relieved I hah I don't cure anything but I relieve their menopausal symptoms and triggers by giving them uh various types of hormonal therapies which will give them no uh uh triggering uh f rise or fall.

[C9] Okay.

[P1] Alright Ruth thanks for the call uh we don't have time for another one uh we did have a a caller ring in saying can trauma bring on an early menopause.

[E1] Uh depends on the trauma if it's a trauma to the pelvis such as involving the uh ovaries or to the pituitary gland uh it may bring on a premature menopause but <,> uh trauma to the legs or the arm is unlikely to do something like that.

[P1] The book is called Understanding Menopause and Hormonal Therapy A woman's guide Dr Barry Wren is the author and uh it's out and about now through McGraw Hill. Uh Barry thanks very much for joining us tonight. Appreciate it.

[E1] Very great pleasure.

[P1] Good to see you. Uh we're gunna pause for news we're uh not far away from uh a chat with uh Matt Preston about the Melbourne Food and Wine Festival which is coming up a little later this week we're also in the next hour going to be talking about cruising <,> and uh Joseph Waddis will be joining me for a chat about that. You're listening in s to Tony Delroy's NightLife.

{cut}

[P1] Yep. You call it jogging I call it running around that's Jimmy Buffett <,> and it is thirteen minutes past twelve thirteen past eleven in Queensland thirteen past nine in W A. Now um <,> what have we got. Yvonne Kenny's The Sally Gardens the Treasury of English Song it's new from A B C Classics the Love and Death in Kathmandu great book uh Australians Amy Willesee and Mark Whittaker have put that together uh Limelight and Delicious magazines as well for March. Categories tonight include famous women <,> uh cricket terms organisations nature and literature. So how do we deal with them apples. What do you reckon Wayne.

[Caller 10: Wayne, M] Um <inaudible>.

[P1] Okay we've got famous women cricket terms organisations nature literature.

[C10] I'll try cricket terms thanks.

[P1] Okey-dokes question one. Uh can you tell me what name was given to fast bowling directed straight at the batsman to intimidate him.

[C10] Uh bodyline.

[P1] Bodyline is correct question two uh what's a ball that pitches directly at the batsman's feet.

[C10] Uh yorker.

[P1] A yorker is correct question three uh what name's given to a non specialist batsman sent in to play out time.

[C10] Night watchman.

[P1] Night watchman's correct question four what is the stroke in cricket which hits the ball from the off side of the wicket to the on side.

[C10] Um <,> hook.

[P1] You got it. That's the hook question five and uh what name's given to an off break bowled by a left handed bowler to a right handed batsman.

[C10] Uh <,> uh.

[P1] Well I think we should be thinking oriental here.

[C10] Oh chinaman.

[P1] That's it. Chinaman. Um now you've dealt with those very well. Um s you've gotta change direction. The options you got are famous women organisations nature or literature.

[C10] Um.

[P1] Five from five Wayne well done.

[C10] I'll try uh nature then thanks Tone.

[P1] Nature question six. A dah dah dah just wondering what is n the name that's given for the dried kernels of coconut.

[C10] Uh.

[P1] What.

[C10] Copra.

[P1] Yep copra well done seven. Um I need to know what is the largest reptile on the planet.

[C10] Um uh saltwater crocodile.

[P1] You got it. It's the croc. Question eight uh eight from eight if you can tell me what is the more common name for the West Australian mahogany gum tree.

[C10] Oh the jarrah.

[P1] It is the jarrah. Nine coming up what is the female element of a flower called.

[C10] Uh <,> uh shee uh the bud.

[P1] Tt tt tt tt tt tt tt tt tt you did really well that's where it fell over though unfortunately sorry Wayne. Uh David from Mosman Park.

[Caller 11: David, M] I thought we were gunna get twenty-five in a row <laughs>.

[P1] He was red hot wasn't he Wayne from Queanbeyan well done good start. Um how're you travelling.

[C11] Not too bad it's nice cool weather. But you can still go swimming.

[P1] You still swimming.

[C11] Oh yeah.

[P1] Well done. Um.

[C11] I'm trying to build up my pecs <both laugh>.

[P1] I've given up on the abs I think I'd settle for though. I I've got I'm still doing the uh the uh gym at a at a fairly regular rate but <,> I dunno.

[C11] What stuff do you do.

[P1] Ah I d I sort of do weights. I do y'know weights for and a o on the sort of the weight machines and that sort of stuff and then I do thirty minutes of of jogging and walking and then I do the <C11 thirty minutes of jogging> cro cross train. Yeah and then the cross trainer twenty-five minutes.

[C11] I haven't been able to do thirty minutes of jogging since nineteen-seventy-five <laughs>.

[P1] <laughs> I I'm trying really hard at the moment. I I b ye I'm remarkable. You should uh matter of fact I I ran into an old mate of mine last last night and he said <,> didn't even recognise you <C11 laughs>. And I thought well yeah does happen.

[C11] It's those new contact lenses.

[P1] Exactly <C11 laughs>. Uh what is the female element of a flower called.

[C11] I think <,> is the male element called a stigma or something or.

[P1] Mm yeah <C11 yeah or something like that> um but I'm looking for the female element <C11 yeah> of a flower um I I could refer you to um tt tt an old uh May West expression relating to pockets <laughs>.

[C11] A torch <both laugh>.

[P1] No.

[C11] Are you pleased to see her <inaudible>.

[P1] Yeah.

[C11] Are you pleased is that is that a chequebook you've got in your pocket <P1 mm> or are you just pleased to see me <laughs>.

[P1] Well you know the expression but you haven't picked up the word yet <C11 ah>. What's the female element of a flower called.

[C11] No I think I'll have to <inaudible> Tony.

[P1] Ah David you piker. Uh Helen from Killara hi Helen.

[Caller 12: Helen, F] Hi Tony how are you.

[P1] Not bad it's your birthday and I think I've given you a gift already.

[C12] I'm I'm so happy <P1 laughs>. Finally get on I've been listening to you for only about four years. Ever since my husband said you've gotta check this guy out.

[P1] Oh my God.

[C12] You turned me into an insomniac <inaudible>.

[P1] Oh dear. Sorry about that.

[C12] Anyway that's alright are we talking about um something beginning with P.

[P1] Yes.

[C12] Is that a pistol in your pocket.

[P1] Yeah that's the one it is a pistil <inaudible> spelt slightly different obviously P I S T I L but pistil is what we're about <C12 inaudible>. Well uh you've got lots of uh famous women uh you could identify some organisations for us there's literature or there's one nature question still left.

[C12] Oh look I'll try the nature one they're not my favourite categories tonight.

[P1] No that's a it's a <C12 never mind> bit of a weird one but we're <,> uh Wayne started us off on the right foot.

[C12] He was amazing.

[P1] Good good start. What type of creature <,> is a mouflon.

[C12] Oh no a rooflon.

[P1] Mouflon.

[C12] Mouflon.

[P1] Now I will give you a clue in that it is <,> creature that is um found worldwide uh this particular creature <C12 mouflon> is found in Corsica. It's a a type of creature and this particular creature is found in Corsica but it's the the creature itself is found worldwide.

[C12] Well my brains te <,> uh brains trust is fast asleep but I don't think he would have known this one.

[P1] Mm. Well.

[C12] Um Corsica.

[P1] I I can suggest to you that there are breeds in Australia. Of this creature.

[C12] <sighs> Gosh.

[P1] Not mouflon but uh.

[C12] Oh look I I'll say bird but probably not.

[P1] No sorry happy birthday anyhow Graham from Mildura hi Graham.

[Caller 13: Graham, M] Is it a cow.

[P1] A cow no it's not a cow <laughs> hi Sue. Sue from Ocean Reef with us now hi Sue.

[Caller 14: Sue, F] Yes hi Tony this is my first time on.

[P1] Oh well I'll <C14 inaudible> I b I better give you a little bit of extra help then wah a type of creature that is a mouflon. And uh we've said it's uh fow there there are breeds of it here in Australia. And uh there are lots of this particular creature in New Zealand.

[C14] Does it start with a B Tony.

[P1] No it doesn't start with a B.

[C14] Doesn't start with a B.

[P1] L loh lots of them.

[C14] Um <inaudible> guess then um would it be like a little mouse.

[P1] Mm no it's not a uh not a mouse sorry Jennifer from Cleveland hi Jennifer.

[Caller 15: Jennifer, F] Hello my first time on too.

[P1] Oh <both laugh> good news. Um mouflon.

[C15] I think it's a sort of sheep.

[P1] It is a sheep it's a it's a wild sheep of Corsica and uh there are a few in New Zealand <C15 mm>. Eleven uh your choice it's down to organisations literature or famous women.

[C15] Oh I knew all the cricket I think I'll try famous women.

[P1] Okay. This first one I think's alright. Um need to know who was Australia's first member of the house of representatives.

[C15] Oh.

[P1] Now I can give you a l nudge here by saying that um her husband was also.

[C15] Oh Tasmanian.

[P1] Uh yes.

[C15] <inaudible> um is it Reed. No.

[P1] Oh no it's not Reed sorry about that wrong one. You went the wrong way Greg from Sydney g'day Greg.

[Caller 16: Greg, M] How you going Tony.

[P1] Good mate eleven we're at uh who was Australia's first woman member of the house of reps.

[C16] Dame Edith {Enid} Lyons

[P1] Yep dame Enid <,> Enid Lyons is correct.

[C16] Enid Enid Lyons.

[P1] Enid. Question twelve um famous women. Uh we could do organisations or literature.

[C16] Um <,> could I do um organisations please.

[P1] Organisations yeah can do twelve. Uh what formerly banned organisation is now the majority party in South Africa ruling coalition. I'll e say that one more time a little slowly which formerly banned organisation is now the majority party in South Africa's ruling coalition.

[C16] Oh dear. It's the mob that um Nelson Mandela was.

[P1] That's exactly it.

[C16] <sighs> Well it <,> it's not it's not the clue free zone yet so mate can I ask for a clue please.

[P1] Yes it's a three word title and the first one is African.

[C16] Oh no.

[P1] If you can provide the second two we move on.

[C16] <sighs>.

[P1] Three words in the title. Formerly banned organisation now the majority party in South Africa's ruling coalition. I share your frustration Greg <laughs>. I can hear the oohs and ahs from here.

[C16] Well yeah when when he was in prison whe when they were trying to get him out and and y'know they were. This organisation was being given a lot of lot of support.

[P1] That's right.

[C16] I dih.

[P1] Robin Island he was there for twenty-seven years.

[C16] No mate I I lee I let it go but thank thanks very much.

[P1] That's okay Greg. Yeah sometimes it just evades you even though you know it. Kevin from Brisbane hi Kevin.

[Caller 17: Kevin, M] Hi Tony.

[P1] Uh any thoughts about the formerly banned organisation now the majority party in South Africa's ruling coalition.

[C17] African National conferen {Congress}.

[P1] That's it uh the a African National Congress thirteen. Uh organisations.

[C17] Yep.

[P1] Literature.

[C17] Organisations.

[P1] Thirteen. What is the militant separatist organisation which fights for the independence of the Basque country from Spain.

[C17] ETA.

[P1] It's really strange that that's uh was actually written uh last week before the bombings so uh it's uh just a strange coincidence.

[C17] Yeah.

{program advert}

[P1] Yes E T A the ETA the Basque Fatherland and Freedom Party. Fourteen um tt what is the most important powerful and prominent of the Israeli intelligence agencies.

[C17] Um.

[P1] Kevin from Brisbane.

[C17] I was gunna say Mossad right away.

[P1] That'll do.

[C17] Okay.

[P1] It is Mossad. Fifteen um little harder what was the name of the extremist left wing terrorist group active in Germany in the late sixties.

[C17] Um <,> um tt uh God not Mein Kampf um.

[P1] Yeah you're on the right track.

[C17] Yeah um.

[P1] It was a gang.

[C17] Yeah. Uh no clues.

[P1] Mm not supposed to.

[C17] B Baader-Meinhof.

[P1] You got it Baader-Meinhof gang. Sixteen uh I think you'll know this one what is the name of the organisation founded in nineteen-sixty-one that campaigns for the release of prisoners of conscience.

[C17] Amnesty International.

[P1] Amnesty Internation is correct seventeen. Famous women literature.

[C17] Women please.

[P1] Women yes this is a an old lady. Seventeen uh who was the queen of the British tribe Iceni Who took on the might of the Roman Army.

[C17] Boadicea.

[P1] Boadicea is correct. Eighteen <,> Kevin need to know who was the Australian nurse who researched and developed a treatment for infantile paralysis. Sorry I'm.

[C17] Bye-bye.

[P1] <laughs> Kevin obviously with a slightly American accent I knew he was gunna gunna struggle with that one. Glenys from Hopper's Crossing <,> g'day h Glenys.

[Caller 18: Glenys, F] Hi.

[P1] Hi <C18 laughs> um eighteen will you who was the Australian nurse who researched and developed a treatment for infantile paralysis <C18 inaudible>. Sister who.

[C18] Yes it's one of those I know.

[P1] Yes it was uh social studies year four I think that we had her in the in the book.

[C18] Mhm.

[P1] Australian nurse. Developed a treatment for infantile paralysis. Any thoughts about the possibilities.

[C18] Oh.

[P1] You do you have any options that <inaudible>.

[C18] Thinking thinking thinking is it um Elizabeth Kenny.

[P1] Yes it is sister Elizabeth Kenny <C18 laughs>. Nineteen well done <,> uh famous women and literature they're your options.

[C18] I think I'll keep on the women.

[P1] Mhm nineteen <,> uh which famous woman won the Nobel Peace Prize in nineteen-seventy-nine.

[C18] Ah guess I can't ask what for can I <laughs>.

[P1] Yeah for peace <laughs>.

[C18] <inaudible>.

[P1] Uh.

[C18] Um and what year.

[P1] Nineteen-seventy-nine. Who won the Nobel Peace Prize in nineteen-seventy-nine. Haven't been that many women who've won it so it's a very limited subset.

[C18] Was it <,> ah hang on. Was going to say Marie Curie.

[P1] Mm no she was long dead by then.

[C18] It was a long long time earlier. Tt what.

[P1] Nineteen-seventy-nine Nobel Peace Prize. I thought it was a bit later than that myself but it's a mm. I bow to lash <laughs>.

[C18] Yes yes always bow to lash and and I'm bowing to brains trust that's not working.

[P1] Oh damn. Well um <C18 I've> a prominent woman that might have won the Novel Peace Prize.

[C18] In nineteen.

[P1] Seventy-nine.

[C18] Seventy-nine I'm just frantically <laughs> what can I waffle on about to give me time <P1 mm> I can't. Um <,> dah dah dah I'm gunna hear that horrible <inaudible>.

[P1] Yeah I I can't.

[C18] <inaudible> Burmese.

[P1] Sorry.

[C18] She wasn't Burmese.

[P1] I can't tell you that.

[C18] Oh okay mm well I suppose I <,> <clock ticking>. Was it <laughs>.

[P1] Have a guess it's worth a guess.

[C18] <laughs> Uh Golda Meir.

[P1] Oh not Golda Meir but thank you for trying uh June from Hobart hi June.

[Caller 19: June, F] I haven't got a clue either and it's my first time on.

[P1] Ooh I'd love to be giving you a clue <C19 laughs> but at nineteen I think they will they'd be tearing me limb from limb <C19 laughs> Uh.

[C19] I've been trying for months to get on.

[P1] Oh I'm sorry <C19 laughs>. Well it's not Golda Meir but I I mean there haven't been that many who've even been a possibility I mean there there's been a handful of women who've won this.

[C19] Yes that's what I w I was thinking of her as well. I ca <P1 mm> I can't think of anybody else.

[P1] Oh I can think of one <both laugh>.

[C19] Oh gee.

[P1] It's the peace prize angle that is the.

[C19] Oh peace prize now who.

[P1] Somebody who was out there.

[C19] She wasn't Indian by any chance was she.

[P1] Not Indian no.

[C19] Ah <laughs>.

[P1] Who were you thinking of.

[C19] Oh was it um what's her name Nehru's daughter. What's her name.

[P1] Oh yes Mrs Gandhi.

[C19] Gandhi yes <P1 yes> mhm.

[P1] Yes no no no.

[C19] No.

[P1] That's uh strangely it it June <,> you're <C19 I knew I knew> <C19 inaudible> you're you're targ <,> you're <,> you're you're targeting the area quite well June but uh you <C19 yeah> you went the wrong way I think.

[C19] No I can't think of anybody else <laughs>.

[P1] Oh damn I'm sorry. Not to be Betty Betty from Mornington might be the answer here.

[Caller 20: Betty, F] Ah Tony I'm I'm pretty sure it's the lady from Burma but I just can't think of her name.

[P1] Tt damn and blast.

[C20] Sorry.

[P1] Sorry about that. Tt Jeremiah

[Caller 21: Jeremiah, M] <inaudible>.

[P1] G'day mate how are you <C21 inaudible>. Na nineteen it is.

[C21] I I I'm wondering whether it's you talk about the area whether it's <,> the uh Burmese woman or Mrs Gandhi but I wuh wuh I think it's um <,> oh the I don't know if she's old enough but I think she's the uh the woman from the woman who's from Burma. Her name was An An Win Wa {Aung San Suu Kyi}.

[P1] A Aung San Suu Kyi.

[C21] Yeah.

[P1] Yeah no nice guess not correct uh Michael from the Blue Mountains g'day Michael.

[Caller 22: Michael, M] How are you Tony.

[P1] Yeah seventy-nine would make it uh too early for Aung San Suu Kyi.

[C22] <inaudible> before I bomb out I think I'll say hello again to darling Glenda and why is she still awake at this hour of the night <P1 mm>. Um was it Mother Teresa.

[P1] Yes.

[C22] Ah.

[P1] Was Mother Teresa of Calcutta who of course uh was originally from uh <,> Yugoslavia wasn't she I think she was born in either Yugoslavia or Albania or something like that. Anyway um yeah right <,> June was in the right section of the world but the wrong area of uh of interest. Question twenty famous women we have one uh literature we have five.

[C22] <clears throat> mm yes.

[P1] Strangely it doesn't really matter because uh the famous women is in area of literature.

[C22] Oh really. Yeah don't lose hope those still waiting on.

[P1] Mm <laughs>.

[C22] Uh <,> oh well well okay let's finish off the famous women.

[P1] Okay the question is who wrote The Good Earth. Very famous book I did that at school.

[C22] I have absolutely no idea.

[P1] You obviously didn't go in to my school <both laugh>.

[C22] Was it Enid Blyton.

[P1] Oh thanks thanks very much Michael appreciate that. Ken from Mt Pleasant.

[Caller 23: Ken, M] How are you Tony.

[P1] Not bad mate.

[C23] Uh before I go on just say hello to John and June and also to uh uh John and Amy.

[P1] Yeah.

[C23] Yep. Last week you had a question regarding the film The Robe do you remember that.

[P1] I do.

[C23] Well my wife and I saw that on our <,> uh eighth of May nineteen-fifty-five which was our first wedding anniversary <P1 fantast> and also her twenty-first birthday.

[P1] In beautiful cinemascope.

[C23] That's right <both laugh>.

[P1] Okay isn't that beautiful.

[C23] Now The Good Earth now.

[P1] Yep.

[C23] Um.

[P1] One of those books that was talked about a lot in the nineteen-sixties.

[C23] And it's still on famous women isn't it.

[P1] Yes and it ih it in fact it's a female author obviously.

[C23] Um <,> w how famous is she pretty famous.

[P1] Oh yes. Well mm I I ha mm this ih this is the f this is the book that made her.

[C23] Oh yeah. Um no I don't think it was Colleen McCullough but um.

[P1] No <C24 inaudible> no noh ih not Australian either um uh Jim from Fitzroy.

[Caller 24: Jim, M] Oh good evening Tony.

[P1] Hello there The Good Earth ring bells.

[C24] It doesn't so I'm uh and I obviously didn't go to your school Tony.

[P1] Sorry about that <laughs>.

[C24] Um. Look I'll just pick one of the <,> women you said its Australian.

[P1] No I didn't say that.

[C24] Oh oh okay um. Well nevertheless I'll pick an Australian person Ruth Park.

[P1] Mm no but thank for trying. Uh Debbie from <,> tah Tahara.

[Caller 25: Debbie, F] Yep.

[P1] Debbie where's Tahara.

[C25] Uh down near Hamilton.

[P1] Oh okay no got it now <C25 laughs>. Um tt the uh person who wrote The Good Earth.

[C25] I wouldn't have a clue.

[P1] Oh damn.

[C25] Alright thank you.

[P1] You you should've gone to my school as well <laughs>. Frank from Maddington g'day Frank.

[Caller 26: Frank, M] How you going.

[P1] Good. Any idea about the author of The Good Earth.

[C26] Yeah no I've been trying to think about it <inaudible>.

[P1] Do do you remember the book it was it was really prop <C26 no> uh it was really prominent in the sixties eherh it was one of those ones everyone <,> was reading but uh.

[C26] That in the sixties everyone was reading.

[P1] Yeah. Female author obviously.

[C26] Female author. Anne Deveson.

[P1] No no no can't do that. Sonia from Coburg.

[Caller 27: Sonia, F] Well Tony no first time on for me but no idea.

[P1] The Good Earth no lih little early for you that's okay thanks for trying Sean from Ballarat.

[Caller 28: Sean, M] Yeah g'day mate how are you.

[P1] Not bad any ideas.

[C28] Uh no not much I just wouldn't mind saying g'day to the boys down at original races actually but uh no gotta bomb out mate.

[P1] Can do no prob. Um Anne from Caulfield.

[Caller 29: Anne, F] Hi um <,> I think I remember a was it a Chinese book.

[P1] Yes.

[C29] Well everyone else in the class read it bar me but I think it was Pearl S Buck

[P1] That's exactly it. Was Pearl Buck well done who wrote The Good Earth. Now we'll get some more literature.

[C29] Oh good <laughs>.

[P1] This one's a a a bit testing twenty-one. I can only just I can remember the book but I I c <,> don't think I could remember the author. You may do better. Twenty-one which American novelist wrote Tobacco Road. My grandma had a copy of it it was <,> very dog eared. Which American novelist wrote Tobacco Road.

[C29] Um look I'm sure it's wrong but I'll just suggest John Steinbeck.

[P1] Mm no it's not Steinbeck sorry uh Lesley from Glenmore Park.

[Caller 30: Lesley, F] Oh hello Tony you don't sound at all well tonight.

[P1] I look I'm not unwell I just sound unwell um it's it's it's one of those things uh I have um I've been s sort of taking the tablets and soldiering on but <,> um it's uh uh partly self inflicted I think I had a I had a late last night which sorta didn't help my uh my condition as they say.

[C30] Pay the consequences <laughs>.

[P1] Oh absolutely but uh I I've this brewing for since probably buh I think people started to detect it on Thursday I was sort of a bit sniffly and then Friday it was mm and uh so I've probably got about least another two days of this uh but it hopefully it'll starts to lift.

[C30] Yeah well I hope your voice stays <inaudible>.

[P1] Yeah no I uh I was bit rough uh the the first few words this morning were a little bit vuhvuhruh {croaky voice imitation} but it's got a bit better since then. Uh an American novelist I've gotta say I I couldn't remember this if if you paid me but um the American novelist who wrote Tobacco Road I'll give you a help the initials are E C.

[C30] E C.

[P1] It's a hard question.

[C30] The only thing I remember of Tobacco Road is the song <laughs>.

[P1] Yeah no the <C30 inaudible> Nashville Teens I think had the had the hit <C30 yes yes>. Oh but y'know mm I don't blame you <,> um Ron from Orange hi Ron.

[Caller 31: Ron, M] G'day Tony how are you mate.

[P1] Good mate any thoughts about Tobacco Road the author.

[C31] Uh just before I have a go at that <P1 yeah> I'm not quite sure uh I'd care to dispute an answer given late last week um the last um question on the quiz about horses. The question was what strap holds a pack saddle onto a horse <P1 mm> and the <inaudible> <P1 yes> said surcingle and you agreed and I'd bet big money it's a girth.

[P1] Yeah well look I I I genuinely Ron I c I couldn't argue with you I mean if you if you say it's a girth it uh it possibly is but I I um.

[C31] Surcingle a surcingle is the outer strap and it's more or less a safety strap in case the girth gives.

[P1] Yeah I I'm noh look. I'm not an expert in that area I I d I don't know horses uh at all so um <C31 inaudible> y'know I I'll bow to your experience I I'm just I I I I can only go on what sh what uh madam lash gives me <C31 oh> and sh that's what she had and um so if it uh I don't think we <,> uh did anybody any damage through it though but um if we did sorry. Uh well the American novelist uh who wrote Tobacco Road.

[C31] I really can't answer I was thinking F Scott Fitzgerald till you said E C.

[P1] E C no no no not F Scott uh can't do any business there Sue from Concord.

[Caller 32a: Sue, F] Hello there Tony.

[P1] Hello amer American novelist Tobacco Road.

[C32a] Well I was thinking might be Erskine Caldwell.

[P1] It was. Erskine Caldwell. Well done twenty-two.

[C32a] I think I'll choose literature.

[P1] Good move <C32a laughs> what is the name of the horse given to Gandalf by King Theoden in Tolkien's Lord of the Rings.

[C32a] Oh <,> well I can ask my brains trust what is the name of the horse given to Gandalf <,> in.

[P1] By King Theoden in <,> in.

[C32a] By King Theoden in Lord of the Rings.

[P1] Yep.

[Caller 32b: Mary, F] Before we answer that.

[C32a] Uh before we answer that can we say <,> girths and the ssurserng {surcingles} are the <C32b inaudible> hang on my horsey person brains trust will tell you but can I just say hello to Peewee P T chal <laughs> Chalice and the Burwood Drummoyne Family History Group <laughs>.

[P1] Grief.

[C32a] <laughs> Yes.

[P1] It's getting longer and longer.

[C32b] Hello.

[P1] Hello.

[C32b] I used to put saddles on horses when I was <,> a child <P1 yes> and the girth is the strap that goes it's attached on one side to the saddle and goes underneath and <,> is attached on the other side to the saddle so it holds the saddle on and a surcingle goes completely around the horse and goes through a slot in the saddle on one side over the top of the saddle and down through another slot in the saddle so both a girth and a surcingle are the correct answers and I think surcingle <,> as it was worded in the question I think surcingle was the correct <inaudible>.

[P1] Yeah no I I thi I think it was worded specifically so that it indicated that it uh it held a number of things in place so <,> yeah so.

[C32b] Girth is actually attached to the saddle the surcingle is a separate strap but it goes through slots in the saddle to hold the saddle on <P1 inaudible>. And I think we're not gunna get anywhere with The Lord of the Rings and uh I think we pass it on to to others.

[P1] Good on you Mary thanks for that uh Gerrard from Geelong.

[Caller 33a: Gerrard, M] Evening Tony.

[P1] Evening mate uh the na <laughs>.

[C33a] That was a little discussion.

[P1] Yes indeed mate you're a horse fan this this shouldn't be a problem.

[C33a] I love the horses that race Tony.

[P1] Uh right well this one's fast. What is the name of the horse given to Gandalf by King Theoden in Tolkien's Lord of the Rings.

[C33a] Yeah Tony it's Shadowfax.

[P1] It is Shadowfax. Well done twenty-three uh how'd you go on the weekend.

[C33a] Uh well I went down to a country race meeting Tony which was rather lovely in southern Victoria Toorang and uh it was uh very enjoyable.

[P1] I I had two bets one which ran like a dromedary. Uh <C33 laughs> the uh that is uh Sweet Corn. Suh someone <C33 ah> some somebody gave me a tip for that and said ab absolutely past the post certainty.

[C33a] It might've been me <laughs>.

[P1] Puh I think the phrase was put your life on it.

[C33a] Yeah it wasn't me Tony.

[P1] And I sort of thought oh fabulous. And uh so when that lost I thought I didn't have a great deal of confidence in the other tip but fortunately the other one won so.

[C33a] Tony we have a <inaudible> little filly going up to Sydney uh for the for the um golden slipper called Alinghi and uh it's a marvellous name it's named after the s uh the um Swiss <,> the Swiss boat that won the Americas cup.

[P1] Mm <C33 Alinghi> and it's and it's uh it's had a fair bit of good form has it not.

[C33a] Oh it's unbeaten Tony.

[P1] Yes yes.

[C33a] It will take will take.

[P1] And he and will be a short prize favourite.

[C33a] And Damon Oliver'll ride it will take your <inaudible> up the hill we'll <,> we'll see who's stronger <inaudible>.

[P1] Ah look uh uh I d uh e uh Gerrard I don't think there's any doubt <laughs>. I'll just leave that I'll just leave that dangling I think <C33 yeah> twenty-three what what is the name of the heroine in Truman Capote's Breakfast at Tiffany's.

[C33a] Yeah Tony I know Holly Golightly.

[P1] That's it Holly Golightly twenty-four tt. Book from uh just a few years ago we're asking who wrote Men are from Mars Women are from Venus <C33 I>. They made an absolute stack out of it.

[C33a] Pardon.

[Caller 33b: Chris, male] Dr John Gray.

[C33a] Dr John Gray I'm told.

[P1] Uh tell you what hang onto that trust <C33a he's>. Well done Chris.

[C33a] That that's Chris of course.

[P1] I know I know I know I know.

[C33a] <laughs> He's a <inaudible>.

[P1] Yeah he's a genius twenty-five I need to know what is the name of the novel by Jung Chang that tells the story of twentieth century China through the eyes of grandmother mother and daughter. Tt huge hit from a few years back <C33a ah uh>. What's the name of the novel by Jung Chang that tells <C33a yeah> the story of twentieth <C33a yeah> century China through the lives of grandmother mother daughter.

[C33a] Yeah I think it was a film. Um oh wow Tony I'm not poh gee me mate doesn't know <C33b inaudible> I don't know. Um well what do you think mate.

[C33b] <inaudible>.

[C33a] Tony we're struggling here <P1 mm> um. Could we have the question again please.

[P1] Sure wha what is the name of the novel by Jung Chang that tells the story of twentieth century China through the lives of grandmother mother and daughter.

[C33a] Yeah um oh God. We're not we're not coming on with it. It's it yeah I know look I know it I can't. Tony I'm not gunna waste time here <P1 okay>. I either know it or I don't know it and I can't pick it tonight.

[P1] Doesn't come to mind thanks Gerrard. Keira from Ocean Grove.

[Caller 34: Keira, F] Hello Tony.

[P1] Keira this is an opportunity.

[C34] It is isn't it.

[P1] Mm.

[C34] I think it might be the Wild Swans.

[P1] I'm certain it is <C34 laughs> Wild Swans congratulations.

[C34] Thank you.

[P1] You've got Yvonne Kenny's C D the The Sally Gardens which is uh lovely you've got uh a good story here Love and Death in Kathmandu that's th that's all that uh uh goings on in the in the uh in the palace over there uh where y'know everybody got killed 'n' uh <C34 yeah> uh uh something that was akin to a uh uh an episode of Dynasty. Uh also Limelight magazine and Delicious magazine and our very very best.

[C34] Mm thank you.

[P1] Congratulations hang in there we'll get your details.

[C34] Okay ta.

[P1] Keira Keira from Ocean Grove is the winner and uh yeah Wild Swans was the uh Jung Chang novel <,> about uh twentieth century China through the lives of <,> grandmother mother and daughter.

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[P1] I was astounded today by the comment of a good friend who said that she hates getting the train to work now. Because she fears trains could be a terrorist target. I guess what shocked me was that someone who I've always considered being intelligent and of sound judgement is now scared to perform a simple everyday task like commuting to work. Tt makes you wonder to what extent we're all frightened and that we might be at the centre of the next terrorist attack. Obviously the latest bombings in Madrid have focused us on the on the potential <,> for such a horrific thing to occur in our own back yard <,> and news reports say that uh a video tape received by the Spanish government claimed that the Al Qaeda terrorist network was responsible for the bombings which last week killed two hundred and injured many many more. The attack was reportedly a payback for Spain's cooperation with the United States over Iraq. So where does that leave us so I guess even the Australian Federal Police commissioner Mick Kelty uh appears to have contradicted a key government message by claiming <,> Australia's decision to commit troops to Iraq has possibly increased the risk of Australia becoming a terrorist target. Now that does make me feel a little nervous but prime minister Howard is sticking to the key message saying there's no direct link between the Madrid bombings and Australia. He says all western countries are in fact potential terrorist targets. Australia is now in the process of analysing its own antiterrorist laws but can any amount of police protection guarantee the safety of a nation's citizen. I think not uh even Mr Howard acknowledges <,> that life must go on and that governments are limited in what they can do. He says the idea that you can guard every movement of every person on every railway station in every part of Australia is lunatic. It's unrealistic. So w <,> how safe do you feel. I mean is your life affected by the threat of terrorism. It's our issue tonight the threat of terrorism here on our shores like to have your thoughts.

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[P1] The next issue is how far do we go to try and ensure our safety. Should our authorities be given broader powers. Something that New South Wales is certainly having a look at uh the Herald is reporting tomorrow <,> that uh the security laws that have been put in place already will be reviewed to see if they need to be toughened. Because uh <,> the meeting that took place in Sydney indicated that um Sydney could be a major target. Tt following the attacks in Madrid prime minister Howard ordered a national meeting of transport security chiefs. That was uh that's coincided with the start of this five day annual security conference in Sydney in which the police chiefs from all the states 'n' t all the territories along with uh some of their counterparts from Asia will look at how Australia and its near neighbours can actually better counter this terrorism threat. New South Wales premier Bob Carr delivered the keynote speech and presented his five point plan on counterterrorism. It includes uh a major review of all New South Wales offences which could be linked to a terrorist act or threat <,> sharing information between state and federal governments and agencies <,> and the concept of setting up a ministry for homeland security. I guess similar to the American model. Er the federal opposition leader Mark Latham is also calling for a one stop shop. Saying what's needed here is an integrated coordinated approach to protect commuter transport networks. Police and security experts are also pushing for an overhaul of of Commonwealth counterterrorism laws which they claim harm their ability to find and charge terrorists. New South Wales police commissioner Ken Moroney is saying that the primary police <,> concerns uh are lifting restrictions on how long terror suspects could be detained. And being permitted to use material gathered with listening devices as evidence in court. Currently most listening device warrants issued for terror investigation can only be issued for intelligence gathering purposes <,> not in courts. Also on the commissioner's agenda are moves for police to take greater control of the area around scenes of terror attacks and to use security guards as a as a quasi counterterrorist spy network. Now this follows the news that the federal government plans to introduce a new offense of consorting with terrorists. The laws would be loosely based on some state laws which jail people who associate with criminals.

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[P1] Tt civil libertarians have slammed the proposal they're warning innocent people are gunna get dragged into police investigations which will interfere with freedom of association. Do you have any concerns <,> how far should we go in our efforts to protect our country our citizens our transport systems. Our issue tonight is about the threat of terrorism here in Australia. Like to hear your comments. Some interesting uh material in in uh what the papers were saying. Uh they're suggesting that the F B I has clearly stated that Australia is a terror target. I know it's not something the prime minister wants to hear but uh the F B I is saying yes it is <,> Sydney could be one city um but it could be Canberra it could be Melbourne. I suppose um the instant reaction to the Spanish <,> bombings where we saw a government thrown out over the weekend because of its poor response to terrorism <,> has sent a an extra chill through some western governments. You uh saw the conservative government that had been closely associated with <,> George W Bush uh a strong supporter of Tony Blair um basically chucked out of office. And uh the socialist government that has come in in Spain is saying we are pulling our troops out of Iraq by June if there isn't a U N mandate in place if there's not U N <,> control of what's happening in Iraq. So um y'know as much as we say y'know the the thing that we want to avoid is having the terrorist attacks influence us uh I suh I suppose in Spain it's had a very direct influence a change of government.

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[P1] G'day Robin.

[Caller 35: Robin, M] Oh.

[P1] You're saying that uh multiculturalism uh as far as you're concerned is actually hindering the the efforts to uh to deal with terrorism.

[C35] Oh I think so I I think that uh we were uh I I only say that twenty-five years ago I thought it was one of the most foolish policies we embarked on without <,> a procker proper consultation with the Australian people. That one of the upshots of it is the fact that if you've got four-hundred-thousand Muslims in Australia which we now have according to the Australian <,> um it makes the the job diabolically difficult uh because the nature of terrorism is it hides amongst <,> people uh causes great difficulties and great rifts within the population and really that's what I had to say that uh we were going to be a terrorist target anyway.

[P1] Yeah but I mean we don't wanna start uh y'know uh just painting Muslims as as as as a a an enemy from within I mean there're there're plenty of uh Muslims who detest terrorism to the back teeth <,> and yes there are some extremists in the in the community both worldwide and here <,> but uh y'know they're very much in the minority.

[C35] Yes but that's exactly what I'm saying. I'm not saying that the majority of Muslims are terrorists or even even uh identify with terrorism what I'm saying is that the fight against terrorism since its Islamic terrorism is just made ih virtually impossible now with the very large number of Muslims in Australia it's not possible to identify who's a terrorist and who's not because it's so difficult to get an entree w into a community which is in fact quite separate from mainstream Australia <P1 tt>. I'm just saying it's much much more difficult.

[P1] Okay well well ih ih how are we gunna deal with that if that's uh if that is the case and it's something we obviously can't reverse.

[C35] You can't deal with it. That's what I said twenty-five years ago. The policy of multiculturalism is irreversible. If you make a mistake you can't undo <,> twenty-five years of immigration. Um you just can't do it <P1 mm>. I was talking to Jewish friend the other day and I said how's all this affecting you and he said look <,> we have prayers <coughs> at um at the synagogue where you always kept the door open. Now we have to notify the rabbi um h whether we're coming or not because they close the door and they have to know how many people are in there. Uh I mean this is affecting the whole of our life and uh.

[P1] It is very disturbing I I I understand that and um I don't know whether we'll ever feel as secure as we have in the past. I think I think the the future is going to be more difficult to deal with.

[C35] Oh well we've got to be very tough there's no doubt about that.

[P1] Mm well we we we're in a situation also where there seems to be a new strand of terrorism with these explosions in Madrid. Uh there was no suicide bombers involved with this this was uh just y'know gear that was placed in y'know prominent positions on public transport and exploded.

[C35] Yes it's like the AIDS virus it can replicate itself in whole range of variables and as you say we're never going to get rid of it but if we are tough and we elect the right leaders and we have a f firm determination to be fair to everyone but also to be very tough with our own freedoms and we're gunna have to make those sacrifices <,> we can certainly beat it in the end but it's going to be a m a m as you say a very massive job.

[P1] Thanks very much Robin Wayne you you're saying uh does John Howard think the earth is flat as well.

[Caller 36: Wayne, M] Yeah well after uh his comments on radio tonight and on um seven-thirty report wuh I think he must.

[P1] Mm.

[C36] It's unbelievable wuh anyway uh you started off your commentary abou um do you feel um uh scared or anything like that and would you <,> um wuh I I don't particularly feel scared where I am and I guess you know where I am.

[P1] Mm.

[C36] Um but um.

[P1] Well it's close to the national capital.

[C36] Yes that's right but um I think I'd be um a bit worried if I was travelling around Sydney on um public public transport 'n' stuff <P1 mm> .Um.

[P1] I think I think <C36 inaudible> I think the scary thought is that y'know it doesn't require the uh the suicide bombers that uh September eleven required <C36 mm> uh y'know these've essentially y'know they they've just got technology that allows them to uh y'know detonate these things remotely.

[C36] That's right yeah um by like you can do 'em with your phone y'know your <,> mobile phone or anything or it be ve um which <coughs> makes it very scary <P1 mm>. But um yes.

[P1] <inaudible> I mean is there any answer to it I mean ih can you defend yourself against something.

[C36] I don't think so no I um you can beef up beef up all the uh security as as much as you like and I don't think you'll be able to stop it.

[P1] Mm.

[C36] Yeah so but anyway I'll leave <inaudible> with that.

[P1] Thanks very much <inaudible> <C36 thanks mate> uh Sue you you believe there is a greater threat.

[Caller 37: Sue, F] Well I think there is look I've lived in the U K for two and a half years Tony <,> and uh at one stage there was a bomb that went off in London Bridge. And luckily I didn't know about it at the time my ex husband was going up towards London Bridge and his train got diverted off sideways. But I figure that your time is up whenever your time is up and now it doesn't matter which government has been in power in the U K the I R A's been operating there for ever s ever so long and they can't s uh stop it's only <P1 mm> in the last few years but the other thing is Howard's in a bit of a bind. If we n not that before we went in to Iraq and Afghanistan there wasn't any of these special security increase legislation <,> for t antiterrorism and things like that. It's only since and we've all all of a sudden <,> these big t antiterrorist conferences it's since going into Iraq so one can only conclude <,> that it is because of going in and p being a part of the coalition of the willing and the other thing <,> is that at least now Howard his credibility has been peeled back a bit as Glen Milne said in The Australian. Peeled back a bit and you can't just rely on oh national security national security because <,> he's not he's n b he's there is no way that he can protect every everyone it's gunna happen it's gunn happen and <P1 okay I> and I think <inaudible> equal.

[P1] I'd better leave it there Sue I we're about to hit the news but more comments after the news this is the NightLife.

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[P1] Yeah it's uh very disturbing indeed there are a lot of issues to deal with uh ih this question and uh it all seems to <,> um surround the uh police powers. Uh the the the future of um exactly how we try and deal with terrorism in Australia <,> and exactly what sort of changes we need to make to our lifestyle and to ensure that uh everything's gunna be okay or is it possible to ch make those sort of changes perhaps we're gunna be uh caught no matter what happens. Jill uh y you believe we need to stand firm in this whole thing.

[Caller 38: Jill, F] Y yeah yeah same Tony um I think y'know Australia ih is y'know sort of joined the rest of the world in in uh <,> in the wake of these terrorist threats I mean I I think our era of splendid isolation is well and truly over. Um when I say stand firm I I think uh uh what I mean is we need to stand firm in being fair to people. In um oh it's an old fashioned term but in doing good I suppose <P1 mm> of y'know keeping faith and hope and not becoming um terrorised. I mean I must admit when I heard about the bombings in Madrid I work my workplace is opposite a railway station I thought oh that's no good <laughs>. And I remember when I was in London in ninety-six and I was really shocked y'know I wasn't prepared for <,> um y'know no rubbish bins all the messages on the trains saying don't leave packages unattended and it really did make me feel uneasy for a while <P1 mm>. But I.

[P1] It's very necessary isn't it when you w when you see things like this happening in Madrid.

[C38] Well I don't know I don't know how far you go y'know I really don't know how far you go. I still think y'know the chance of being in a being killed in a car accident is much higher isn't it.

[P1] Oh absolutely. And in fact uh I th I think that's something that most officials say uh that y'know if it really changes our lives they've won. Simply because <C38 yeah> uh y'know they y'know they've ac got the ability to to to make change and to drive change by the terrorist actions <C38 mm>. And yes the chance of us um being killed individually as uh y'know a percentage in uh y'know o ad id ih everyday chance it's it's quite <C38 mm> you've probably bigger chance of being crushed by an elephant but <C38 laughs> <,> y'know I mean uh uh y'know the last thing we want is uh y'know a Bali bombing happening even closer to home.

[C38] Yeah and I think our uh our part in the w what are we called the coalition of something or other <inaudible>.

[P1] Coalition of the willing.

[C38] The willing <laughs> that's right. I think that has made us um more of a target. And I think the Spanish government was thrown out because of that but also because they lied about it y'know they tried to blame ETA immediately. Trying to deflect y'know responsibility. Um I I just think if we keep on this spiral of um attacking people all the time and um y'know looking to protect ourselves in militaristic sorts of ways ih it can only get worse <P1 mm> I really think we have to <,> as I said just stand firm and and continue to be fair to people.

[P1] A lotta the experts say we really have no alternatives but to support the Americans um but I guess how far we do is <C38 mm> is a big question.

[C38] Mm it's like well it's not we had no alternative but to go and fight in the Boer War and to go to Gallipoli y'know.

[P1] The Maori wars <C38 laughs>. It ju it goes way back I mean.

[C38] We do we do have choices y'know but I think fear often uh rules those choices for us.

[P1] Yeah thanks Jill great to hear from you. Um it is true um but a lotta people saying well you have to be in an alliance it's uh you can't stand free of it and we are firmly wedged with the Americans the British and the Europeans although a lot of the Europeans seem to have broken loose of recent times. We welcome back West Australian listeners after the mid evening bulletin uh this is the NightLife and the issue of the day and tonight we're looking at uh terrorism and how it's likely to impact on everyday Australian life. Um some far reaching police powers to search arrest and detain people suspected of planning or committing terrorist acts are set to be strengthened in certain states and uh it is a very different atmosphere post Madrid. Peter um you're you're worried about our security.

[Caller 39: Peter, M] Well I'm concerned about I go to Spain fairly regularly and uh I've been reading the Spanish newspapers a couple of points I'd like to raise because <P1 sure> there seems to be a a breakdown in the Spanish intelligence services which is very bad. And uh there was no warning <coughs> that this was going to happen and uh it's amazing because the uh Spanish have a very very large police force as you probably know.

[P1] Mm.

[C39] And uh a very active intelligence system because Morocco is so close to them. Now a Al Qaeda assuming it was Al Qaeda <,> was able to outwit them and uh there's some funny business somewhere because it took them a very long time to get to that cell phone. In fact uh it took them quite a while and uh <P1 mm> then <inaudible>.

[P1] I notice of the five suspects arrested three are Moroccans.

[C39] Yeah but there was a long interval and they should have got to that to the source of that uh cell phone the sim card a lot quicker than they did. The Spanish people were protesting against Aznar because he had lied to them. And they didn't like that and they also were protesting because the intelligence services had failed and I would think that uh the question of lies uh might take us back to children overboard. And there might be a lesson there somewhere for this government.

[P1] Mm <,> uh do do you think that Australia is in the firing line there is the potential for a a Madrid in Australia.

[C39] Oh I think there's no doubt about that uh uh I read extensively and I follow everything on the internet and <,> I've never uh in the nine years or so that I've been on the internet m I've never seen Australia mentioned so often. And uh it's a bit spooky to to find yourself uh linked uh with this coalition. But um I mean that's life we've been taken there and um uh we have to live with it and I just hope and I have great faith in uh in uh Keelty the commissioner. I think he is a good man I think he's a very honest man and I think he's extremely bright. And he gives me a great deal of confidence therefore I shall um travel in uh public transport quite normally I'm not gunna be spooked by any of this but I think that uh the government may have led us into a very dangerous situation.

[P1] Peter thanks for your thoughts Rick uh y you think the prime minister's talking up terror all the time.

[Caller 40: Rick, M] Yes I think um there's just been a a bit of a shift I've noticed in the last couple of days with Mr Howard um originally talking up the terrorist angle and using it I think in the same way as your previous caller talked about with the children overboard situation where it's a wedge politics to make people feel a sense of fear whether it's true or not. We all know now that it's true and as soon as this uh evidence comes back that it is true with things like the bombing in Madrid he seems to um take another tact and try and remove himself from having um any responsibility involved with um bringing Australia into this situation. I just think that your first caller originally when you first started this segment before the news spoke about multiculturalism and said that he felt it was a problem I think it's actually the key. I think an open hearts and open minds sort of attitude with an alternative to conflict and tension and the attention that can be gained through this sort of action needs to be defused I mean ten years ago this country was sort of put up on a pedestal was a model for the rest of the world in how well multiculturalism was working here <P1 mm> and in freedom of religion in freedom of speech and freedom of belief and and I just don't know where we're going. I think ten years ago we were on the right track and we had good relationships with our um neighbours in Asia and around the general region and I just think this move away to the right has been extremely damaging but I'm hoping that it's the last swing to the right that we get for some time because these things always seem to have a pendulum affect and I think we're swinging back the other way now and I think it's high time and I just hope that we haven't done too much damage that is irreversible.

[P1] Thanks Rick great to hear from you um Jean Pierre you want a word about this as well you you believe we need to look at <,> why there is terrorism.

[Caller 41: Jean Pierre, M] Yes I mean like leh let's face it you can put uh uh whatever change whatever law you want up to this or that but I don't think it's gunna <,> uh influence a decision of somebody who's gunna decide to blow a bridge or anything like that <P1 mm>. Um the the major part I took offence to the chap just before the news uh who seemed to blame the Muslim. And he he made a reference to his Jewish friend who has to close the door. Um we were all screaming our head off um uh in February last year or sometime last year because um Iraq had the twelve years to uh or ten years to <,> obey U N resolution but every for body seemed to forget that since nineteen-sixty-seven Israel has forgotten to um uh imply the uh is uh the United Nation resolution they must pull out of the West Bank and Palestine. And basically the whole Al Qaeda movement was based for that. If you take Bin Laden if you sort of study um his early beginning and all his whole life <,> he he only had two reasons for being it. First it was to overthrow the government in Saudi Arabia which is rotten and corrupt <P1 mm>. Two to um prevent um Israel from destroying Palestine and therefore he was an eme enemy of the American. Right. Now if you don't need the problem pretty soon we will create a rift between the Christian and the Muslim which eventually uh the the Muslim country have a lesser living of standard than the western world and it's very easy for anybody who takes over down there to use the western world as a c scapegoat.

[P1] Yes.

[C41] You see what I mean by that and no law that you're gunna put no phone tapping no um. I mean if we go in phones they got a pirate solution they got this they got that they got tha it still happens.

[P1] It is impossible to defend against somebody who's prepared to die for a cause.

[C41] That's right and when you think about the intelligence from the America I mean American spent as as b I think the C I A on its own has a bih a forty billion budget but yet. Wha wha what what did they knew about Spain. Absolutely nothing <P1 mm>. Right and uh we just can't cope to keep on saying we need America we need America we need America <,> I can't stuh uh uh stick <inaudible> hang on America need us too you know. What about pine uh Pine Gap. Where they gunna put that <P1 tt> I mean that's a big part of their uh o of their anti espionage thing. What about the um the big um radar in uh near Canberra with the needs for the NASA and things like that <P1 mm>. Y'know so ih it's not just saying y'know but we need America we need. We need to stand on our own two bloody two feet for a change you know sort of said where <,> you know sorry but you know this is not legal this is not moral this is uh the problem is a problem for the Middle East it was created <,> um with the Balfour resolution during the First World War. Uh it's it then it turn into lies after lies after lies until eventually um England uh wash uh their hand with uh with uh the Palestine solution and give it to the United Nation <P1 tt>. Y'know and ih <inaudible>.

[P1] Yeah uh ih it's a lot more complex than a lotta people are suspecting and uh and ye you're right y you p really have to look at the reasons for the terrorism uh ih as potentially I guess the the the main solution. Jean Pierre thanks for y for your thoughts on it. Magpie uh consistency is your issue.

[Caller 42: Magpie, F] Don't you like what I put up on the board.

[P1] Consistency.

[C42] <laughs> Well probably a few listeners wouldn't mind if a few black and white feathers flew but I don't think Bingar is a major target. Um H M A S Success in New Zealand <P1 mm>. Feel very sorry for the crew because I have a feeling that there's some uh uh readjustments going on in uh routines over there. But that is just how simple this sort of thing can happen <P1 mm>. Um even if they did write the right thing on the side of it. At first I don't think we have enough information exactly at this moment to to acknowledge who is behind it there may be some educated guesses.

[P1] Well the European and Arab intelligence officials say the preliminary investigation and uh the interrogation of the five arrested <,> is really pointing heavily towards Al Qaeda.

[C42] Only one of whom apparently is uh of interest the others were uh uh phone shop owners. Um I mean the for ooh I don't know there was a great organisation went on behind this incident uh the timing the the whole thing that was needed uh listening to someone there you needed to organise the uh coordinate have vehicles have <,> have h safe houses have escape routes so there was more than one involved uh it was a big organisation of some by some very clever person. Um we have been warned uh time and time again n Australia has been named um by this coalition of the willing is the alliance between the warnings and our vulnerability. Um but you see no weapons of mass destruction Tony have actually been found in Iraq which mea could be inferred that Iraq was actually complying with that U N resolution which the U S and its puppets used as an excuse to go into Iraq. So in actual fact ih it almost makes it an illegal act in itself uh after the event.

[P1] Mm <C42 y'know> well the the French and the Germans certainly thought that.

[C42] Well precisely um <,> now <,> Mr Howard today said it wasn't neccessary to upgrade a warning colour but several uni uni European countries have gone from yellow to orange and one's gone to red <P1 mm>. And.

[P1] I think we were listed as being at medium level at this time.

[C42] Well when Mr Howard was asked he said no it was not neccessary change. Alright everybody who have a fridge magnet what is the national security hotline number Tony <laughs>. It's a good trivia question 'cos no one remembers it.

[P1] Dear oh dear <C42 laughs>. You ask you do ask the tough questions. Thanks Magpie Warren uh ye you um an L P G tanker driver.

[Caller 43: Warren, M] Yes mate.

[P1] And you've had some directives from your company.

[C43] Yes I've been um we've been instructed by the company in writing as well as verbally um to be aware of what's around us we do a lotta late night deliveries.

[P1] Yes.

[C43] And we've been told be very careful. If we don't think it's safe to drive off. Um one of our drivers says what happens if we get confronted by people in vehicles and he won't let you drive over 'em if you have to. This is um <laughs> <inaudible>.

[P1] That's interesting.

[C43] Yeah.

[P1] A a and and what they're they're they're concerned that there is the possibility of <C43 well> somebody trying to commandeer a vehicle and and do damage with it.

[C43] Yeah well y'know like a forty-five-thousand litre L P G tank would make a helluva big hole in the ground.

[P1] It would.

[C43] And and um <laughs> we've been told be very careful and if we don't think it's safe to keep driving then call the authorities. Um I'm <P1 that's interesting> out at the mo I'm out at the moment working. And w y'know w w w we go to some s pretty dark and horrible places in the middle of the night. And um y'know we're we're all concerned and <laughs> even our families are concerned 'cos y'know we we've gone back to our families and said been told to do this and um <P1 that is>. Yeah.

[P1] That is really scary.

[C43] Yeah well it it would make a helluva mess I can tell you now <P1 mm> it'd make a helluva mess.

[P1] Yeah that's reason to be concerned.

[C43] 'Cos um 'cos um L P G is very very volatile even more than y'know your average unleaded fuel so uh it's <laughs>. Yeah it's a bit worrying 'n' you you might say when you're driving the thing around all day.

[P1] Absolutely Warren thanks for passing that on that's uh that's interesting <,> a new approach from a company when uh <,> when dealing with uh anybody who might approach an L P G tanker. Colin uh you you believe if we surrender to terror they're the winners.

[Caller 44: Colin, M] Oh of course uh you just have to have a look what's happening in Spain now <P1 mm>. Uh the terrorist there now know that they can.

[P1] Change governments.

[C44] Government <P1 mm>. And change government policy. And how can you do it you can do it through bombs <P1 mm>. Um and that means they are now in the driving seat they are going to win this uh campaign. If the rest of us give up if the rest of us give in to them and I guess it's called a form of appeasement <P1 mm>. Um I I find that very concerning and uh.

[P1] It is a very difficult task this this uh declared war on terror from president George W Bush. Uh it's simply because it's such an amorphous mass <C44 it is>. Uh it's h it's hard to know exactly where they are. Where they they thought that they knew where most of the training bases were in Afghanistan <C44 mhm>. Um I don't know whether they control much more than the Afghani capital. Uh and a and a small area around that.

[C44] Well the Northern Alliance scar has a large slice of northern Afghanistan and that's nominally within the control of the alliance <P1 mm>. Of of the sorry the coalition of the willing. Um uh y'know we shouldn't underestimate what has been achieved in Afghanistan certainly the <,> dreaded uh Taliban have gone.

[P1] Oh <C44 inaudible> no no question that uh it was good to to have them departed but <C44 and> uh y you you sort of wonder whether the American focus uh moved to Iraq and uh y'know basically let Afghanistan go.

[C44] Oh true there there there's uh evidence in that I guess. Uh the point I would make though that we as a nation ha have been marked already. We were marked <,> at the time of our events in Afghanistan <,> um.

[P1] We were also marked uh at East Timor.

[C44] East Timor that's right and I would suggest that we were marked before that because <,> these people the terrorists they don't like who we are or what we stand for. And if we start surrendering and giving in to their <,> dictates their demands well they win and the world will be poorer for it.

[P1] Thanks Colin great to hear from you uh Eve you uh you believe we've been at war with terror for uh a long time.

[Caller 45: Eve, F] Uh uh yes uh Tony I just heard you say before <,> well there's probably a reason for terrorism. There's no such a reason for terrorism it's a most insidious horrible thing. Now uh uh uh what that foreman meh Colin said uh uh that the new socialist government is going to appease these terrorists so that any time in the future uh any country's going to have an election they'll boh blow up a few uh trains and dictate who's going to govern the country <P1 mm>. So all your listeners who who <,> y'know it's always they get on to have this shot at John Howard anyway <,> uh th they will come on and say oh what wuh y'know we've got wuh t terrorism ih you blame the Americans you blame <,> the English and you bla blame the Australians uh uh can you remeh you wouldn't remember sixty years ago when Hitler tried to take over the world. And and Japan and our allies went and fought them otherwise Hitler wuh wuh would've taken over the whole world. You you don't give in to them Tony <P1 mm>. Now uh I I I really can't believe all these people that are blaming the coalition uh for for going to war with Iraq and and these other countries these fundamentalist Islamic terrorist <,> and y'know I I will justify which uh uh we're all required to to say not all Muslims are terrorists <,> but there's a lot of them who hate Christians. Uh the ye y'know all you people who come on and defend these people uh that uh you're getting the message aren't you that they hate Christians and we are at war with them.

[P1] Mm well I I think there's a war on terrorism I don't think there's a war against m uh uh Islam. Uh it's uh it it it is a a y'know a conflict that <,> uh is based on uh Osama Bin Laden and his uh connections that uh are determined to <,> y'know make radical changes in <C45 but Tony they're they're they're> the Middle East and America.

[C45] They're promising they're going to take over the world and kill the infidels is that correct. That's a war isn't it <P1 mm>. So what do you do. Do you just sit back and let them take over the world.

[P1] Yes I I think that uh y'know th they can disrupt the world I don't think they can take over the world it's not it's not like they've got an army like uh Adolf Hitler had behind him and y'know the he had the potential to take over the world. And I think y'know this is a group that can rock the world certainly but not uh not not uh uh y'know dem uh commandeer us.

[C45] Any anyway Tony I I'm I'm just <,> uh fearful of the people that we now have in Australia <,> who've just uh wih wih with their provincial political thinking blame everything on John Howard I think he's a very brave man. Uh who has taken on these terrorists like two-hundred Australians uh uh were blown up three-thousand Americans were blown up uh two hundred uh uh Spanish people were blown up the other day so what do we do. Do we appease them or do we go to war against terrorism <P1 is>. I think that's the main question people should be asking.

[P1] Thanks very much for your point of view uh Dawn you you believe the prime minister's correct.

[Caller 46: Dawn, F] Yes I do and I'm so pleased to hear Colin and Eve thinking correctly. I n I know for one that I don't want to have to walk down the street wheeling my grandchild thinking can't I take him in there or can't I take him there. I wanna enjoy his time with me while I'm alive <P1 mm> and I and my grandchildren to come and as as far as defending Australia I think people are are it amazed me I they're the <,> the islalelu {Islamic} the Islamic race is winning. Uh they they have already won it is a war terrorism is a war and they're they're already winning they do have the means <,> you say they can't take over the world.

[P1] Well I mean th they doh they don't have the means to to y'know dominate the world at this time.

[C46] Well sneaking into places and bombing bombing innocent people <,> blowing hundreds of people up at a time I mean <P1 mhm> that's good odds isn't it.

[P1] Yeah well it certainly rocks the world there is no question of it and I mean everybody is firmly focussed on what happened in Spain I mean uh ih it was terrible I mean these people were uh poor workers they were uh y'know um uh students they were every everyday average people who were <C46 that's what I mean> who were killed by this uh <C46 that's what I mean Tony> terrorist outrage.

[C46] Can you think of a place in Australia where they couldn't get to. You could you think of place in Australia that's safe. And what if they were so well organised that they could choo asy as a caller previously said uh they could use telephones to ignite these bombs from long distances away. I mean they could do twenty thirty places at a time <P1 mm>. It must have taken a lot of organisation for those people to get the planes to work in places where they could be trusted y'know in America and then all of a sudden that great disaster I mean there were thousands killed there. And those people were going into people's homes as friends <P1 mm>. I I can't believe that people can be so naive <,> as n as I mean I look at it almost as treason when you go against your own country and I think John Howard is a is a very brave man and I think we've got the right man at the helm he <,> nothing rocks him where he can think he can think evenly about things every every problem that's thrown at him in this situation he's very s he's a steadfast person he stands stands there <P1 mm> and protects our country and and makes decisions that that affect us every day that keep us safe. Uh I I think people are are choosing a game of dice they're throwing it in the air and saying yes we'll choose this it's like barracking for a football team. They get a they get an idea into their head and they think oh yeah this is good this'll be good but not one of those people would be willing to say <,> I bet you if he said come on stand up with me and protect our country they wouldn't. I have a son who's just come out of the army he's now in the police force and he was overseas. And I I dread to think I have another son as well that they would stand up there and protect people like these. And what would they do what would they have done if they had've if there had've been and I still believe there were weapons somewhere I believe that he had a l it's a huge place over there and he had a lotta countries <,> as allies to put those weapons long long ago uh otherwise why wouldn't he let them come in straight away and look.

[P1] Alright Dawn thanks for that uh good to hear from you James you you believe that fear is taking over uh.

[Caller 47: James, M] <inaudible> g'day mate um good conversation tonight. Yeah I was in England got back just over a year ago <P1 mhmm> on a working holiday visiting relatives. Caught the tube from Padding to Waterloo 'n' <P1 yep> mate I hated it <laughs> it was awful <laughs>. And it wasn't me and and um one thing I learned and my family and friends told me is that <,> people weren't very friendly and people don't say hello and I just hate the idea that 'cos I grew up in Sydney. I just hate the idea that it's gunna become like that 'cos I remember Sydney as a happy friendly city and <,> people say g'day y'know just <,> just and then they're achieving what they want to achieve just just by that and I just hope that it doesn't become that way because I thought it was awful. And I found myself becoming that way. I'd see a bag a bag or baggage on the train and no one near it. Y'know.

[P1] You'd move away.

[C47] And I'd go uhp <P1 mm> no I wouldn't I'd go who's that belong to <laughs>.

[P1] Oh okay.

[C47] Where's that come from <P1 yeah> and I'd I'd watch it. And and all the warnings and the and the alerts over the over the network and and the voice overs and things and it does get to you and I just <P1 mm> hate to think that.

[P1] I mean ih ih terrorism isn't brand new here either I mean we y you only have to think back to uh what was it nineteen-seventy-eight the CHOGM conference at the Hilton hotel in Sydney. The <C47 yeah> the bomb that went off outside of the Hilton <C47 yeah>. Um so it's it's and y'know we've we've had an explosion at uh the police <C47 inaudible> headquarters in in Adelaide we've had uh <C47 yeah> the uh y'know and and Bali o obviously even though it wasn't <C47 and Bali yeah> on Australian territory it was almost de facto Australian territory.

[C47] It was yeah yeah. I I just I just don't like the the idea that that we might become very unfriendly people and suspicious and a bit paranoid about <,> where we go and what we do and I just hope it doesn't become that way 'cos that's what I experienced in England and I didn't like it at all basically <laughs>.

[P1] Yeah I know I I understand exactly what you're saying James thanks uh Steve you you're concerned about the increased powers issue you have a bit of a problem with uh unlimited powers.

[Caller 48: Steve, M] Yes very much so actually soon I'll be more scared of uh uh t uh the police than the terrorists <P1 mm>. Because um if they suddenly have powers holding you without arrest and all of that it um <,> takes off uh the pressure on the police to actually uh be a bit more um thorough in their investigation. They can just hold you because oh you look like a terrorist and suddenly um you could be in their custody for a period of time which can affect uh your family life <P1 mm> once I find that you are in custody you uh tend to um uh you you feel that you're powerless and uh with uh with them being able to say well you can come here and uh we don't ha even have to charge you with anything.

[P1] Mm I don't think they're thinking about uh a replica of Guantanamo Bay I don't think it's gunna be quite that ruthless but uh what they're saying is that what they'd need to do probably is hold <,> uh terror suspects for longer than we would normally hold criminal suspects for and be able to investigate them fully otherwise uh y'know it is it's it's possible that the authorities are gunna miss certain facts uh that could be critical.

[C48] I've no problems there but these laws seems to be uh cutting across the whole board whole spectrum <P1 mm> so therefore I mean yes that might be a good law for today and everybody sort of understands but suddenly <inaudible>.

[P1] It's on the books and so therefore it's there forever.

[C48] That's right and therefore some policeman may have a small grudge against you maybe nothing major but suddenly he holds you for four hours or how many hours he's allowed to hold you whatever the case may be. It's just something and then lets you go you've got no recourse unless you've got good lawyers <P1 laughs>. And um <laughs> y'know money y'know you let these things go and I find that there should be I mean I I believe they should have powers and I believe they have a lot of powers. Mm but I think there there's gotta be a very tight scrutiny and like the last uh powers that were introduced with ASEO the only people that really scrutinised them were the Greens and at the end of the whole lot I actually wasn't quite satisfied um where the powers would end and and and I wasn't clear where what the powers actually were <P1 yeah>. And that's uh.

[P1] So you the you you think it's important to underline the fact that it's still a democracy.

[C48] Yes very much so and uh I believe they do have uh quite extensive powers now and just by giving more and more powers to the police actually creates more fear of the police than it does of the terrorists.

[P1] Alright Steve thanks for your view Greg you uh have a general comment on on terror.

[Caller 49: Greg, M] Yes uh Tony.

[P1] G'day Greg.

[C49] I I was very impressed with the comments of uh Colin Steve and that other lady uh we're talking here raw patriotism and uh and I'm not taking away from the others who have a genuine belief in what they believe in they they believe in appeasement and so on. But my attitude is I go though a path and when I walk through Perth I I go through a sign that says those deserve peace who are prepared to defend it. Now that doesn't mean to say that I'm a warmonger <P1 mm>. What I'm saying is if someone threatens my country I'm a defensive person not an offensive person <P1 yep> if someone threatens my country I'm right behind whichever political party is prepared to pick up the gear and go and I will do that I'll defend Bob Brown I'll say Bob righto Bob you wouldn't wanna pick up a a an M sixteen with me. I've gotta defend you and your family and you're gunna roll over uh and say y'know please don't hurt me it's uh ih uh I'm a good bloke. I said that that isn't the way these poor fanatics think <P1 mm>. And I said the bottom line is that that sort of action those guys have got and they are fanatics and they are off the beam and <inaudible>.

[P1] Well ih it makes it also very hard to defend against simply because you don't know exactly where they're going to go next.

[C49] No and and of course if if they come into our territory any of these folks that do that then I say we need whatever powers that the government needs to defend against that I am only too happy to support it because I can walk through. They can arrest me any time they want to. I can walk through there I know that I will come out the other end okay. Now some of those blokes are a little worried about that. Think about it because um uh in our judicial system ih in the Westminster system of government we have a predication of innocence before guilt <P1 mm> and uh I uh I uh I think I couldn't put it better than Colin Eve and that other lady <P1 yep>. And I won't try and go over that ground again Tony.

[P1] But uh as far as you're concerned <C49 inaudible> we we we should uh.

[C49] <inaudible> protecting my country and my family and <P1 yeah> my grandkids.

[P1] Y you believe we should be taking a a very aggressive uh investigative.

[C49] <inaudible> it's not so much aggressive but a very positive stance towards protecting our country and we don't roll over and just lie down and go for appeasement. That's not my game and I I will support any government and I guarantee there's an awful lotta people behind me <,> that that says we will use whatever powers we have to to protect our kith and kin.

[P1] Tt good to hear from you Greg thanks for that uh Tom you you believe public gatherings <,> could be a possible target here.

[Caller 50: Tom, M] Yes Tony. I just listened to that man and a couple of women before him <,> and I wonder where they live. Um <,> here in Toowoomba I I doubt that we've got any cause to worry because there are no gatherings big enough anywhere in toowoom {Toowoomba} we don't have a train service <P1 mm>. Sydney and Melbourne could be concerned about it but why about transport when they have for instance in Melbourne they have an anything up to ninety-thousand people gathered together for a game of football.

[P1] Mm oh it's something we have to look at too I mean <C50 of course> y'know major sporting gatherings that sort of thing it ih y'know they all could be potential targets.

[C50] But how do you guard against people who are prepared to blow themselves to pieces to take somebody else with them.

[P1] Well I don't think you can.

[C50] And I heard I heard a a few of your callers talking about <,> them the terrorists have done this to these innocent people in Spain. What the hell do they think that the coalition of the willing did <,> to innocent people in Afghanistan and and Iraq <P1 mm>. Y'know and and as one of your callers said <,> nobody is dib is being bothered to find out why they are terrorists why they are doing this sorta stuff. How can you defeat something if you don't know why they're doing it <P1 mm>. And and when they talk about a war against terrorism <,> you you can't win a war against terrorism you have to find some other way of doing it. And that doesn't mean rolling over and appeasement and all the rest of it. And uh I don't know where they get the idea that <,> um Bob Brown or Labor is prepared to roll over and and and appease the terrorists uh uh it's all I I I don't know I don't know where they <,> <sigh> they they must just reach up into the m into into air and grab these things out out of mid air because.

[P1] A l a lotta people believe that um y'know we shouldn't have been in Iraq in the first place <C50 of course> uh and and I think um y'know that's th th that's the attitude that they're reflecting.

[C50] Tony John Howard said that that as far as he's concerned there's no link between uh the spai Spanish troops going into Iraq and and the bombing <P1 yep>. Uh the majority of Spaniards don't agree with him. They they uh thought enough about it to uh ousted the government that took them into that. And uh uh I I don't kno I d I don't know you know <,> when they talk about Iraq <,> an and I heard Bush talking about protecting America from an attack by Iraq. And and we we're in this this sorta stuff too. Iraq was never a threat to us <P1 tt>. And yet but we we attack it we we invade it without without any warning and and now we've we've got we've got people we've got people in Guantanamo Bay and as far as I'm I can see the most that they could charge them with is defending themselves against an armed attack.

[P1] Yeah I think it'll be m little little more serious than that Tom by the sound of the uh military tribunal <,> but thank thanks for your thoughts Ian uh y y you believe we shouldn't run up a white flag under any circumstances.

[Caller 51: Ian, M] <inaudible> under no cir <clears throat> pardon me g'day Tony under no cir uh circumstances <P1 mm> um I mean we are we're fighting people in these in these terrorists how I'd label them <P1 mm>. They are they are diabolically evil they are fanatical and they are cowardly. And ih h the appeasement will will uh serves nothing. Wih wih they are utterly utterly committed to their cause and they pervert a noble religion Islam in so doing. Islam is not all about this. This is a perversion of it <coughs> the w the what they're what they are doing.

[P1] Mm Osama Bin Laden's version is a very different one from <C51 oh> the Koran.

[C51] Very different from what you'd find in the Koran and <,> very different from what would be preached by a a a balanced and scholarly uh mufti I'm sure <P1 mm>. But um.

[P1] I I understand your comment.

[C51] Ih it's we we we just simply have to stand firm ap appeasement has never worked I mean look at look at history I mean yes yes there were innocent people were killed so were innocent people killed in the second world war but did we should we will we we feel constrained in our fight against imperial Japan and Nazi Germany because innocent people were going to be killed in bombing raids or shelling or whatever <P1 mm> no. Uh tragically this is part of war. And I have <coughs> um my life was <coughs> profoundly changed uh mm by the loss of my uncle in the second world war but that's that's another matter th so I mean I have no I have no reason to to be uh.

[P1] A supporter of conflict but mm.

[C51] War but I neither am I a pacifist but it. I've had to be realistic <P1 yeah>. I mean this is an occasion where we simply have to take up arms <P1 yeah> we have to be alert and we we really I mean it it's going to be a I don't uh I don't think anybody you one would be a fool to imagine one could this could be something that could be won as it were overnight. It's going to be a protracted protracted affair.

[P1] Well I think um president Bush indicated it could be twenty years it could be fifty years and uh I think he's not far off the mark. Ian thank you um I think we'd better call it a halt there. Thank you for the callers I'm sorry we didn't as always we didn't get through everyone um this uh will undoubtedly develop a little further this is the first day of a major conference that we're reflecting on uh and uh unfortunately the terrorist threat is uh mhm gunna be something we're gunna have to learn to live with.

{Ends 2:06:24}


{Untranscribed introduction and music 0:00 - 6:30}

[Presenter 1: John Cleary, M] So now it's welcome first to our expert panel. Dr Brian Edgar he is director of theology and public policy for the Evangelical Alliance a mainstream Protestant agency which have a website that canvases electoral issues. Brian welcome <Expert 1: Brian Edgar, M thank you John> to you.

[E1] Thank you very much glad to <P1 Victoria> be here.

[P1] Victoria Kearney is one of the coordinators of a website called PolMin which looks at lobbying for policies in harmony with Catholic social teaching Victoria welcome to you.

[Expert 2: Victoria Kearney, F] Good evening John.

[P1] And uh it's my pleasure to welcome in Adelaide Paul Newsham. Uh Paul Newsham is a pastor with the Northside Christian Life Centre an Assemblies God church at Gawler in South Australia Paul welcome to you.

[Expert 3: Paul Newsham, M] Thank you John.

[P1] So first to you all the great mystery of this campaign for us what would Jesus do. Paul Newsham let me come to you first. Um <,> Christians seem to be getting organised <,> in political lobbies in a way that they haven't in previous election campaigns. Now is this something that has just spilled over from the United States or has there been a groundswell for a number of years.

[E3] I think it's been growing for a number of years I I think Christians um have withdrawn from politics for too long um and from from making their voice heard probably because we felt being in a Christian nation that our values were being maintained but I I think as we look now at our nation we probably would be hard pressed to call it Christian and I think our Christian values have also been undermined quite dramatically so Christians are just rising up and saying we want to have the values that we believe in.

[P1] Well I guess the real question there then comes to be well there's two questions that occur to me <,> why in organised parties and uh what values. Let's address the organised parties question first and uh Brian <,>.

[E1] Now.

[P1] There's a long history of Christian involvement with uh with with politics.

[E1] Absolutely.

[P1] Why uh what's the difference between Christians who get into politics just by becoming members of other parties and this current trend to see Christians particularly it seems to me <E1 mm> and I may be wrong uh Christians with a a particularly tight view on on social issues <E1 yes> getting organised in politics.

[E1] Yes yes well ih yes uh Christians uh I I think at the moment are involved ih in in both levels very much uh there are those that are uh forming parties and and coalescing in that way. Um ih it's perhaps not so obvious that there uh are uh and have been for a long time a lot of Christians who are uh deeply involved in uh uh in politics but but not in in uh sort of that cohesive way it's uh it's Christians working within other parties. Uh and I think to some extent there are some uh uh sort of theological things that underlie why why people take a different approach to that <,> um ih it's possibly true that th perhaps the more conservative people do tend to to form parties a little bit more and I think it's possibly because of a slightly different view of the world. Um perhaps uh they see things a little bit more black and white and and perhaps the idea of uh of being uh separated from the world is perhaps a little bit a little bit stronger and so in a sense a a slightly different view of holiness of uh of working in a in a Christian community and not sort of being <,> unequally yoked with uh with people in uh in secular parties uh whereas on the other side there are there are people who would suggest that uh uh the best way to transform structures is by actually being involved in those structures and so try and work within uh political parties.

[P1] Victoria Kearney let me bring you in here because there is a long history of Catholic social involvement with the community indeed <,> uh the church has been actively seen particularly in Europe uh over the last hundred years or so has been actively involved in uh creating political parties. Yet that seemed to go on the wane over recent years and you have more the tendency s uh uh to do as as Brian was describing for Catholics to get involved in parties and be the sort of influence within existing parties. Why has that happened what's been the shift there.

[E2] I think that um <,> there there was th there was the argument between religion and politics and I think that people have uh probably taken a step back in terms of being involved in party politics <,> but our organisation is actually coming back into the political arena because they've recognised that they can work like a revolving door around poverty and welfare and structural problems <,> unless they actually get into the part t into the political arena they won't impact on that on those policy issues so we're coming back into politics but fo.

[P1] But not as a party.

[E2] Not as a party but as a ih on in relation to the policies themselves.

[P1] Issue by issue.

[E2] Yes.

[P1] Paul that comes back to you then <E3 mm> why have you been an active supporter of getting Christians as organised groups to form political parties uh Family First is one party that you've been associated with being active in support of and I know that Family First has a lot of support in A O G Assemblies of God communities.

[E3] Yeah I think I think John it has to be said that we've been active in getting people involved at all levels both the levels that have been talked about in the sense of uh people becoming actively involved in other <,> um parties uh getting involved in the political system p uh uh per se uh but also there's been this move in more recent times to get involved in uh a party as such. Um I I think it has to be said that Family First doesn't see themselves as a Christian party but uh certainly the majority of the people in there are Christian. But they're espousing the kind of vows uh views rather that Christians um of our type would be more likely to espouse I <,> I think.

[P1] What do you mean by your type.

[E3] Well <,> probably those of us who are strongly uh for family values and so on who have been I think um disappointed with the standards and the directions that some of the parties have been going <,> we.

[P1] Which parties in particular.

[E3] Oh <several laugh>. Well y'know I I don't think any of the parties have specifically d uh targeted families as someone that they're concerned for. Um every party kind of has its um its group y'know the Labor party have uh targeted the working class the Liberals more the business <,> uh the Greens the environmentalists and so on. Um Family First party and others like them have felt that the family is someone who needs to be very much cared for and <,> it doesn't become a single issue in the sense that every piece of legislation just about that goes through any parliament is going to affect the family in some way and so <,> it's been felt by these people that family needs that kind of protection and and and I think that those people that are supporting parties such as Family First and others are very very strong that the family is the basic unit of society and that w if that goes down society goes down. So.

[P1] Brian Edgar let <inaudible> <E1 yeah> I'll have <E1 well> to get in on that <inaudible> <E1 yeah I> we can't let you <E2 and E1 laugh> run a party political ad here.

[E1] I think I think this is actually another reason uh for why some Christians prefer to work in parties in that way Paul's pointed us to this <,> that that there are some for s from some people's point of view uh there are some certain specific issues that they say would say these are definitively the issues that uh that Christians need to get involved in and we can agree on those issues <,> whereas I think some of the Christians who uh don't get involved uh in in a a a Christian party in th in that sense or ih or a party of Christians <,> uh perhaps see that there are there are other issues as well I'm not suggesting that Family First are not concerned about issues of asylum seekers or justice or the war in Iraq or so on. But uh th the it seems that that the formal sort of more Christian parties ha have nominated uh largely family issues uh uh as as being the focus whereas those that are working through other parties are perhaps more <,> uh more focused on on some other issues or perhaps PolMin and others uh are more <,> y'know <,> based on specific policy issues rather than uh a a a party structure like that.

[P1] Well l let's come to the point there and shift away from the the issue of how we organise in parties and come to that question of values. That is what are definitively Christian values that one could claim uh uh a mandate for in terms of going to people and saying look these are the values that Jesus would stand for this is what Jesus would vote on. Um for you Victoria Kearney what are the critical issues as a committed Catholic Christian that you say look Jesus would be right down the line one these.

[E2] Okay I just wanted to make the point that PolMin has been very successful <,> having a bipartisan party political position. We've actually um reflected other people's positions and sharing sh recognising that we're actually sharing values across party positions. So that's where PolMin has made a difference particularly in say the water issue. But in terms of Jesus in terms of what the what the values that we operate on are the common good. The the the fact that it is the concept that is the cornerso cornerstone of Catholic social teaching. It says that all social conditions everybody should have access to equal social conditions. People.

[P1] Equity then is it is it.

[E2] Equity and and and equity in terms of fulfilment um fulfilment to the resources of creation fulfilment in terms of housing fulfilment in terms of uh education. So the com common good is one of the very strong cornerstones of our work. Um solidarity with those who are disenfranchised. If we don't protect the rights of the poor or the disenfranchised it affects all of us.

[P1] Now you're picking up on a strand of Catholic social teaching that's been there for the best part of what a hundred and ten years now <E2 yes> since uh the famous um uh the famous uh w work uh by pope um tt.

[E2] John <P1 by by by> John.

[P1] Well not John the twenty-third <E2 oh yeah> but I'm going back a hundred years before that <E2 yes>. Um <,> uh to to the whole issue of Catholic social teaching and uh um the condition of the the working classes that er document <E2 that's right> that came out in eighteen-ninety um so the.

[E2] You probably know more about the the the specifics of cashel Catholic social teaching than I do but what you're talking about is solidarity with those who are um not a y'know not disenfranchised and and s the the whole mutuality if we do for them we do for us it's a reciprocal arrangement it's it's for the for the good of all that we pull together. And so they they would be some of the values that we'd be looking at.

[P1] Alright now Brian w what for you <E1 yeah> you're you're coming as a director of theology and public policy from a group called the Evangelical Alliance which is a an umbrella body for a number <E1 that's right> of of mainline protestant groups <E1 yes> I guess we could d describe <inaudible>.

[E1] Yes we're we're not we're not in any sense a political party I mean we see uh people being involved uh in all sorts of uh different kinds of ways. I I I think some of the values that uh Christians have traditionally seen as y'know Christian values and and people have applied in their own lives <,> are actually really important social values that need to be expressed in terms that are appropriate for our community <,> take something like grace y'know a a y'know amazing grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like ne me is normally seen as being something that applies uh to us the God has uh saved us by his grace but if grace was lived out as a a social value it would be profound because grace really means giving people what they don't deserve.

[P1] Yes you've picked an <E1 uh> interesting example there uh with uh Amazing Grace written by John Newton <E1 mm> who was a converted slave trader of course who fought <E1 yes > for the abolition of slavery <E1 a and was very political> so grace for him was a social value.

[E1] Yes <E2 mm> that's right and uh uh uh had profound uh impact uh uh I might have mentioned th mentioned this to you earlier profound impact actually directly on Australian there's a direct line <,> between um John Newton and William Wilberforce uh in the in England Wilberforce uh was advised by Newton <,> not to give up politics uh Wilberforce was planning to go into the ministry and Newton said no don't go <,> do that y stay in politics and and Wilberforce uh mixed with William Pitt the prime minister then and it was at a a breakfast between uh Wilberforce and Pitt that they decided to send uh a chaplain out to the Botany Bay to the colonies here. So sort of direct straight line between John Newton and uh and Australia here.

[P1] And and you say that that really defines a tradition within evangelical protestantism.

[E1] Certainly. There has been a very strong tradition uh of soh social involvement in evangelicals I think unfortunately during the <,> twentieth century uh it slipped away. The n the nineteenth century was a tremendous time for for evangelicals in terms of social action and the twentieth century perhaps wasn't so hot 'cos I think a lot of evangelicals bought into the <,> sort of claim that there's a dichotomy a division between faith and work uh and and tended to privatise faith a lot but <,> uh part of the reason I think why in recent times there's been a lot more political involvement is that people are overcoming that very artificial distinction <,> uh that there's private faith and public values and people saying well look these <,> these values these Christian values that we have they're actually very important social values as well. I mean if we didn't have a society that was based on giving people more than they deserved how would that change our our attitudes in terms of uh the way we deal with uh with social welfare the way that we deal with uh asylum seekers and so on ih could would be quite radical.

[P1] Uh Paul what Brian is saying there is picking up on much of what you said but I suspect you're coming from act actually radically different positions when you're looking at application of those values.

[E3] Yeah I'm not so sure um first of all y'know I don't represent a political party I believe that any candidate who's upholding Christian values is really worthy of a a vote. Um I I I think that for me whether you believe we're a trichotomy a dichotomy or any other kind of otomy <E2 laughs> um every area of our life is affected by our spiritual beliefs just as every <,> just as our spiritual beliefs affect every area of our are affected by every area of our lives. And so I think when it comes to our beliefs in politics and so on we need to be um bringing those values in but for me I'm very interested and I'm sure that <,> that the people that I've associated with in the past and and m candidates that have Christian values are very interested in the health of our people we we want our nation to have good health cover and good health protection we we want good education systems in our country and surely every <P1 uh> Australian wants that.

[P1] Well let's talk about education 'cos there's a there's a really interesting issue. I um wuh y you support I would take it the um the uh the the position on on private schools that private schools should be um should be actively supported and that Christian schools should be actively supported.

[E3] Y yes I would because I think that if parents choose that form of education for their children then they should be able to do that. I think it's.

[P1] What if about that choice isn't economically available to them. That is I'm talking about where you get a situation where you've got to say as the churches did in debating this a hundred years ago <,> look if we privatised education we wouldn't have an adequate public system. So we've gotta have the public system first.

[E3] Y yeah and and I acs fully accept that argument and I'm not gunna go against that I think however that part of the choice that parents make is whether or not they can afford a private education and many <,> many private schools of course do everything they can to help families that are underprivileged so that their children can still have some level of education in a private school. Um but to me it is a choice of parents and I think that it's also a good thing that governments support uh public uh private education as well as public education I don't think there should be competition here I think they should be working together but let's not forget that the parents who are putting their children into public s uh into private schools are still paying taxes as the s th under the same regime and to the same value as those that are in public school I I really don't think it should be a major issue. I think it again we should be making sure that our children are getting a good education whether they're in a private or a public school.

[P1] Brian

[E1] Yes well uh uhf have to say of this point say the Evangelical Alliance wouldn't have a a specific policy on that but it would be uh I think guided uh along lines of a a say if uh the principles of justice. Uh and biblicly speaking justice is a is a concept that's biased uh in favour of the disadvantaged so uh whatever policy one comes out with there it it needs to be uh a policy that works in favour of those who are most disadvantaged.

[P1] And Victoria.

[E2] Uh PolMin would probably support that s a similar position that we need to protect the rights of those who are disen disenfranchised. So we need to have access for the poor to education and then choice for those who wanna make a choice.

[P1] You're on Sunday Night on A B C radio around Australia John Cleary with you. This evening we're asking the question how would Jesus vote. Now you might like to uh to register your opinion on our informal and utterly unreliable poll by giving us a call one-eight-hundred-eight-hundred-seven-oh-two one-eight-hundred-eight-hundred-seven-oh-two. Around Australia if you're in the Sydney metropolitan area you can give us a ring on uh eight-triple-three-one-thousand eight-triple-three-one-thousand on Sunday Night how would Jesus vote.

{program advert 24:25-25:01}

[P1] And on Sunday Night our guests this evening in the studio are Dr Brian Edgar director of theology and public policy with the Evangelical Alliance Victoria Kearney <,> oh from PolMin a uh a network uh um you can join PolMin actually if you wish to but uh a network of people concerned with uh bringing Catholic social teaching <,> back into the public policy debate and Paul Newsham of the Northside Christian Life Centre at Gawler in South Australia and of course you one-eight-hundred-eight-hundred-seven-oh-two or eight-triple-three-one-thousand let's say hi to uh to Damian in Ballarat and uh see what Damian has to offer Damian how are you.

[Caller 1: Damian, M] Good evening John.

[P1] How do you think jee <C1 inaudible> how do you think Jesus'd vote

[C1] Well personally I think he wouldn't vote we cuh couldn't expect him to vote <P1 laughs>. Not democratic Jesus y'know uh if we take the tax collector uh situation where he was asked or w Jesus was tempted uh and asked what y'know about the the coin that belongs to Caesar 'n' he told him that y'know what belongs to Caesar s y'know <P1 what v>. Give him what belongs to him.

[P1] Well let me <C1 inaudible> ask it another way what values do you think he would express.

[C1] Well this is the values you wish forwould be God's law that's the whole principle of it. Uh and uh he uh we are imperfect y'know we can't keep the law. So how can you expect him <,> y'know to vote on <inaudible>.

[P1] A a are you going to vote in this election.

[C1] Sorry.

[P1] Are you going to vote in this election.

[C1] Yes

[P1] And would you allow your Christian ethics and principles to influence your vote.

[C1] Most definitely.

[P1] Ah <inaudible>.

[C1] And that's the other point <E2 laughs>. To see the the Christian values when my brothers and sister there are asked these questions I find it hard to comprehend why they can't get their tongue around what are Christian values. They can never seem to put it out y'know.

[P1] What are they for you.

[C1] For me uh a decent moral life which we are not getting now all you have to do is listen to the <,> radio T V our screens advertising boards on the road.

[P1] So this is personal morality you're talking about here.

[C1] I think I don't think it's just personal morality I think it's a a national worldwide morality. Y'know uh if the structure of society uh we don't seem to learn by history. Y'know what <inaudible>.

[P1] Do you make a differ a distinction between morality and justice.

[C1] Uh I think morality does bring justice without it you cannot have justice that's why we have corruption <,> that's we wih uh we have uh y'know people uh being uh <,> s what's the word for it I'm just trying to think but y'know they're not receiving their uh entitlement in life because people are greedy they cheat they lie. Uh all these things add up to an immoral way of life.

[P1] And they've certainly been issues that have been canvassed by politicians of both sides in this campaign so.

[C1] And how can you expect Jesus then right to vote when he knows that both sides <,> will not be perfect.

[P1] Gee uh I guess that's a question that goes profoundly <C1 inaudible> to the incarnation does it not uh <laughs> Brian.

[E1] Well I wonder yeah I I it to some extent I I appreciate s uh Damian's point about what Jesus would do and so uh I I wonder too whether he would uh actually vote but I think for pfls perhaps slightly different reasons to to Damian uh because uh <,> ih if we imagine Jesus in the fir in the first century and if they'd had y'know full free and fair democratic elections uh <,> who would he have voted for and I think the the the the passage that Damian pointed us to y'know render to Caesar what is Caesar's and what ih to God what is God's <,> uh perhaps that mi actually might imply well render to John render to Mark what what belongs to them <,> uh and render to God what is what is God's um. But I I'd I'd be hard pressed to say uh how how how he'd vote I I wonder whether ih in actual fact he might even be a swinging voter <P1 and E2 laugh>.

[P1] Victoria uh can.

[E2] Well I m I mean I was sitting here thinking I mean after the debate tonight he might've gone into the temple and thrown the tables over and said I'm not voting for anyone I don't trust <P1 mm> ei either side.

[P1] Yeah complicity <E2 um> in the political <E2 y'know> system.

[E2] Is this capitalism or is this democracy and this is greed y'know I think his first reaction might have been quite angry. But I think he might have thought about the donkey vote y'know he was inseparable with his donkey wasn't he <laughs>. But I think he would've given it a lotta thought after a while and started to think about the values a little bit more you know and <,> and what what it was that. I think he would have cast a vote eventually.

[P1] Paul <E3 yeah> let me ask you a question here. Uh you mentioned um t the family values up front and ih you've we mentioned your association with the Family First party. What ih <,> wh what is it that makes you associate Jesus in particular with family values.

[E3] Well let me say first of all uh to Damian y'know his comment about us not getting our tongue around Christian values. Uh to me it's very very important that we recognise that righteousness exalts a nation economy and things like that don't but righteousness do that's that's a straight outta the bible statement and I'm a <,> a unashamed bible believer. Um tt what ih what makes me associate with family values is that what you said.

[P1] W no what makes you particularly associate Jesus with family <E3 okay> values.

[E3] Well I I I just see um Jesus and the teachings of his disciples for example the apostle Paul are very strong on family values uh y'know particularly you go into Ephesians five and so on. Y you just see the power of family in the teachings there. I think Jesus valued families greatly he valued individuals as well of course and and when we talk families I don't think we just wanna talk about the nuclear family or the husband wife and two kids I think the single mum with two or three children and <,> a and so on are are family. And because they are individuals uh but because God created family in the first place he has a very deep interest in them but I come back again to the fact that to my understanding family is the basic unit of society. When God created Adam he then created Eve and he put them together on the face of the earth to work together and I don't think that's ever changed. I think.

[P1] Well it's it's interesting because when you look at the actually the way Jesus behaved it was actually different to that. You could I mean I'm not denying what you're saying but one could equally if one was getting into a bit of <,> biblical exegesis as they call it explaining the bible and unpacking it. Y you could actually build a case to say that Jesus was highly anti family in a way. That he actually never got married himself that he went out on the road <,> that Paul was anti family that Paul said look d only get married if you <,> if you if you have to y'know there is a better way in fact the church dev uh valued the idea of the single life very much that that this whole building of the family values thing is a really artificial construction that's not to say it's it's it's wrong it may be right but you could equally <E3 uh> build a <E3 uh uh> build a case the other way could you not.

[E3] I think if you if you go through the teachings of Jesus he made statements about family and marriage and how sacred marriage was and a sexual relationship the whole thing so I don't.

[P1] Yes but did he make it pre-eminent I guess is what I'm saying.

[E1] Well if I if I.

[P1] Brian <E2 sighs>.

[E1] I d I don't think it's ei it's one or the other I uh uh wuh uh. I think evangelicals generally would want to have pretty strong stratements {statements} on the on the family side and on the justice side I think part of the problem <E3 absolutely> has been these two things have been <,> separated uh too much uh. Somebody looked at our our website during the week and thought we were a bit left. Uh but I think that's only because perhaps they had identified the Christian issues with one side that is the family issues and type of thing which we have statements about uh but anybody who had statements about some of the other issues is obviously left now I think it's a matter <,> we have s <,>  y'know it's important to have uh from our point of view yuh statements about uh family uh marriage uh uh same sex relationships views views about that as well as uh the justice issues.

[E3] Absolutely I <E2 I think mm> I.

[P1] Paul hang on we'll get Victoria in.

[E2] Yeah just I just think that Damian made the point about private morality public morality and I think that <,> in some ways Jesus was a collectivist in that and a communal person because he stood in solidarity with the poor he was seen in groups um he was listening to one group versus the other group so <,> there he had a public role and a private role in terms of his morality and his failures so.

[P1] Let's take some more calls Damian thanks for your call we're gunna have to move on <,> to uh to Bernard in in Melbourne hello Bernard how are you.

[Caller 2: Bernard, M] Good evening. Um I'm concerned that uh some of your panel tonight is doing much the same branding that the political parties themselves do. Um to talk about uh evangelism as being on about the family and yet uh the evangelical movement is often <,> uh vehemently anti same sex relationships and uh glorifying material wealth and material success seems to me is very much anti family <,> and to talk about the Catholic church as being honour bound uh to common good and justice <,> when as a Catholic I have to say that the internal administration of the Catholic church resembles farm more Stalinist uh Soviet Union than it does <,> the mercifulness and forgiveness and compassion of Jesus um really means that br a brand a particular brand is being put forward rather than the truth and in that way resembles the uh the major parties much more than it does the uh simple humble merciful and loving message that Jesus gave.

[P1] I think we'd get Victoria to respond to that Victoria.

[E2] Okay um I'd like <P1 thanks Bernard> I'd like to just say that PolMin is not part of the mainstream church. Um we have members who are c obviously Catholics and and our teaching is Catholic but we're we're definitely an independent Catholic lobby organisation which which I guess <,> um entitles us to our own position whi which doesn't neccessarily reflect the the mainstream of the church.

[P1] Are you suggesting you have some sympathy with with what Bernard's saying about the institutional church <E2 that's right> er as as religion <E2 mm> with a capital R <E2 mm>. Mm.

[E2] I means our bishop in in Parramatta came out last week and talked about public morality in voting. Now we would definitely support that and be very proud of the fact that Bishop Manning said that <,> and we would say that publicly but that doesn't neccessarily mean that <,> uh PolMin is an independent organisation from the mainstream of of the structure of the church in Australia.

[P1] Brian the church does have a bit to answer for as an institution uh be it all all the denominations uh <E1 mhm> how does one respond to that do you actually.

[E1] Well yes I I think in general the the the point that's made there is is uh one about humility y'know uh who who does speak for God and and do we speak <,> too decisively uh and the Church probably well cer certainly has at times uh spoken too decisively about uh y'know saying what what God wants and I think we have to uh be very humble in uh in speaking for God but <,> in a sense not speaking is uh is worse we have to <,> uh s do and say what we can but recognising w we we don't have the full truth and ih indeed that's actually what lies behind say the um the doctrine of the separation of church and state <,> uh which is as much a theological as a political doctrine which is saying look there is a certain danger <,> in in the church trying to pretend that it has all knowledge and can definitively say what what God wants. Um.

[P1] Is that the danger of the church become like a political party because it could <E1 it is> achieve government and then be in the position of being both Caesar <E1 yes> and Christ.

[E1] Yes there there's there is a t a significant distinction between the separation of church and state which I think is very important doctrine <,> and the uh separation of Christians and politics now I think Christians should be involved in politics and I don't think they should be separated but they<,> at the formal level of church and state it's uh it's a dangerous thing.

[P1] Let's move on to uh to Pam in Melbourne hello Pam welcome.

[Caller 3: Pam, F] Hello how <P1 wh> are you.

[P1] Good what would you like to say.

[C3] Well I'd I think that he would be he would vote for an environmental party because I think we'll all have to answer for what we've done to the creation. And that he would be a socialist because of the values of sharing having enough but not being greedy having compassion being honest and having a stewardship.

[P1] Okay Ralph we'll get you to uh sorry we'll get you to respond to that now p Paul rather.

[E3] Um I I'm quite that Jesus would be very interested in the environment and very concerned for it and I'm I'm absolutely certain that his values include sharing and so on. I'm not sure whether he would fit into an environmentalist party or a socialist party but I do think that Jesus Christ would vote if he were going to vote and by the way voting is secret in our country so he probably wouldn't ever tell us. Um <inaudible>.

[P1] Wh why do you say though you don't think he fit into an environmentalist or a socialist <E3 no> party.

[E3] No I'm saying I'm not sure if he would and I'm not sure where he would throw his persuasion in fact because Jesus would be wanting to see the whole of our society helped and strengthened um and so I think he'd be looking for the opportunity to help in every one of those areas and probably find that each one of the parties fell short in one area. Um for example if he went to an environmental party he might find that there are things in there he didn't like and so he'll go then looking for somewh I don't there's just no perfect <E1 mm> party is there.

[E1] I think that's ih if I can say I think that's laid behind my slightly uh cynical comment before that Jesus was a m might be a swinging voter <E3 yes>. It's just because it's a little difficult to imagine him saying well <,> uh look it's all the way with the Liberals or it's it's I'm a dyed in the wool Labor Labor person <inaudible>.

[P1] But surely that's what parties like the Christian Democratic party are doing.

[E1] Uh well I'd even say look we we y'know that they're the same kind of issues will arise there Christians themselves are not entirely agreed about what Christian values involve so <,> I I I don't here in Australia I don't eeh I I don't think I've heard <,> Christian Democrats saying oh look uh <,> uh this is the only party that somebody uh could possibly vote for I th uh there's more of that in the U S but I think I think we're a little more laid back in Australia <P1 mm>. Uh I have had some peoples tell me <,> uh in the last couple of weeks who who uh who Jesus would not vote for <,> uh or come pretty close to it but I haven't heard too many people say well <,> he would only vote for this or that uh party.

[P1] Let's go to uh to Mark in the Blue Mountains Pam thanks for your call Mark hi how are you.

[Caller 4: Mark, M] Hi good thanks good. Look I I think Jesus would definitely vote I think he would be a social activist I also think he'd be politically very concerned about issues of health education affordable housing and also um work places that offered safety and and and a bit of security and justice. I think he'd be very concerned about contemporary issues of that affect politics of today I I don't <,> I I wouldn't see him being aligned to uh conservative politics at all I think I think that would be quite alien.

[E1] You see that that makes my point about people being more clear about who he wouldn't vote for than the than the who he would.

[C4] Maybe so.

[P1] <laughs> Uh ih Mark had you finished your uh your your delineation there.

[C4] Yes.

[P1] Well we we'll might get another couple of calls in and then come back for some uh some general comments 'cos we've got lots of people calling in <,> with some opinions on this thanks Mark for your uh for your observations. To Michael in Rooty Hill hello Michael what would you like to say.

[Caller 5: Michael, M] How you going. Yeah I I um I I really can't say what I think the Lord would who who who who he'd vote for but I <,> I I would like to say this that uh w one time he spoke to a um a lawyer who had a y'know the correct theological answer. But uh the Lord pointed out the the missing ingredient which was compassion. And I believe that uh y'know a lot of <,> Christian politicians and y'know the people that y'know standing up for family values et cetera yeah are doing the the right thing y'know but but we must not miss miss the compassion part. And and by compassion I don't mean y'know watering down values but I mean y'know being conscious of uh y'know certain issues like uh y'know we had the <,> the asylum seekers at one stage y'know and uh and y sometimes y'know we we can close our hearts and our ears because we're so busy just y'know doing what what we ough what we oughta do but sometimes we we miss out <,> the ingredient that that has to fit in as well. And I think um y'know there are <,> certain <,> Christian groups that that are trying to find a balance and and that's that's where I'd like to um y'know I I mean I I I I do have in mind who I'd like to vote for. Uh and han han an and and comes close to that but um yeah that's ih it's just finding the balance of <,> of of having the the Christian morals and and the principles which you can't water down but but also having the compassion that comes with it.

[P1] Thanks for that observation <E1 yes> Michael uh who'd like to pick that up Brian you were wanting to say something.

[E1] Well yes I think I think that Michael's got a good point there uh y'know pointing us towards those values again uh uh uh at the end of the day God is not going to say uh hey did you get an annual growth rate of six percent. He's gunna say did you uh do justly did you love mercy did you show compassion did you walk humbly with God those those are the things that <,> we're gunna be asked about.

[E3] I fully agree with that John and I uh as I've talked with politicians across the board I find some that are moved with compassion 'n' some that aren't and and that's across the board and I I really do think that it all goes back to motive in many ways why are we in there and <,> and what is our purpose for being there compassion is without a doubt very important 'n' and I ih going back to the asylum seekers which the caller mentioned um I I think if our if we weren't moved with compassion on that one we really need a needed to go back and have a look at our motives. Jesus certainly would have been.

[E2] Mm I think I think um y'know in terms of s Mary Magdalene was a prostitute he stood he stood beside her and and saw that her position in society was not just as a result of her personal choice. She nee y'know in terms of access to education in terms of having ih empowering people to live their lives fully I think that's what he would've he would've seen as a priority. And I think that we're getting caught up in um a few extra dollars in our pocket. Will those few extra dollars change society as a whole <E3 mhm> for all of us and I think that we need to look beyond just the the short term economic gain and look at how we can empower ourselves as a society as a whole <E3 yeah>.

[P1] Let's go to uh to Caleb at the uh at the Twelve Apostles hello Caleb.

[Caller 6: Caleb, M] How are you tonight.

[P1] Yeah a very significant place to preach from tonight what would you like to say <E2 laughs>.

[C6] Yes that's right um tonight at church we had a friend who's children um h do home schooling and he's um the principal brought out about um the gay marriages been um going for a w while and they got t together with the prime minister and he's like said he's not going to let that happen which was really good and all the Christians got together and um and which I was really pleased to hear it um read out tonight and with their um thing you're talking about the families 'n' everything um. I just just don't know why this day and age all the families like they can't won't that they'll get married sorta thing and not live with each other and I mean Christ wouldn't want that to happen down on earth and that sorta thing so.

[P1] Okay well we got uh thuh. Victoria that's tends to be a little ag leaning the other way from what you're saying I mean you gave the illustration of of Christ and the woman caught in adultery and others <E2 mm mm>. Whereas our caller was saying well look you know on the gay marriage thing Jesus'd say no.

[E2] Mm I think I think Jesus supported diversity I I think he understood um why people in society who are poor did the things they did or <,> resorted to and we have the same very similar things that are happening today. Um y'know we look at even security and say terrorism. Is terrorism based on the result of corruption and poverty and fear y'know I mean people I think Jesus would see why these things are happening in our world why and h I think he would be saying look the U N's really important. Y'know we need to work this out cooperatively and rather than y'know.

[P1] He was a globalist.

[C6] Yes and rather than a blame game y'know like these people are dreadful and it's evil I think he would be saying um let's look at the causes let's work together to sort the problem.

[P1] We've got.

[E3] Although I agree with although I agree with that comment I think we can't uh lose sight of the fact that Jesus did make very definitive statements about things and the woman taken in adultery he didn't just say poor lady. Although he had incredible compassion for her and I trust that we will but he actually said don't do it anymore.

[E2] Did he help her out of her hole though.

[E3] Absolutely she would've been a changed woman <E2 yes>. But she was empowered to go away and not do it anymore.

[E2] And I think that that's what the common good says is that you provide opportunities so people can change not just say that if you work hard and and your you'll find your way out of that hole I think sometimes we need to actually support those who are not able.

[E3] Absolutely.

[P1] Why is it um Paul do you think that currently the overt appeal in terms of politicians <,> going for the Christian vote has tended to be focussed almost directly on the appeal to the conservative side of Christianity with with um clearly Peter Costello and Tony Abbott making direct appeals for what they see as Christians who share conservative values. It's almost as though y'know Jesus would vote this way from their perspective <E3 well uh>. Why does that have such a resonance for them.

[E3] I I think part of it is because they have noticed in recent years that the Christians are standing up and saying that we want change and we want things to be the way we believe they should and so for example I was in the meeting where uh Peter Costello spoke to Hillsong um there was something like twenty-one-thousand people present now that's a pretty good place to make your speech. Um now I'm not being totally cynical but I do think that they have realised that the <,> the the Christians are beginning to rise up and have a voice and so.

[P1] But on the f by the same token we've only got a few minutes sorry to cut you off only got a minute or so left. In the Labor party you have people who are just as publicly Christian people like <E3 yep> Beazley reverend <E3 yep> Brian Howard deputy prime minister an <E3 yes> ordained minister <E3 yes> Michael Tate now a <E3 yep> Catholic priest <E3 mhm> um Simon Crean uh these are people who are are overt in their Christian resonance yet um uh Brian Edgar they don't seem to <inaudible>.

[E1] Well I think part of it is that that the um <,> uh is that it is the the the evangelical or the or the conservative ends th the where the churches are growing that's where where a lot of the people are at I think that's uh probably part of part of the issue. But it is interesting at the end of the day that Christians tend not to vote terribly differently in terms of proportions to the rest of the population. So they're there voting for for Labor and the and the other parties as well there's not a radical difference.

[P1] Final word Victoria.

[E2] I'd I'd I'd yes I'd I'd like to just say that I think there's a difference between spirituality and Christian perspective and theh <,> there is a very strong growth in in spirituality that is progressive in its view.

[P1] And more people are gunna take values issues into account do you think.

[E2] Yes I think so.

[P1] Final word with Victoria Kearney you've been on Sunday Night a debate <,> about what would Jesus do in the case of the electoral process. More heat than light I suspect but that's the way of these things. Stick around coming up soon Irshad Manji on The Trouble With Islam on Sunday Night on A B C local radio around Australia.

{Ends 48:44}


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